Gary Heseltine’s book : https://www.amazon.com/NON-HUMAN-Rendlesham-Forest-Incidents-Denial/dp/B0BVDF6W2Z
ICER: https://icer.network/
Welcome today we have the pleasure of welcoming Gary Iselin he spent six years in the Royal Air Force Police before joining the British transport police in 1989 he went on to complete an almost 24y year career he’s currently vice president of the International Coalition for extraterrestrial research welcome Gary
Thank you very much B Baptist it’s a pleasure to be here ah it’s a real pleasure to have you here um you’ve had a brilliant career what’s made you want work on uaps uh it stemmed from a childhood site in at the age of 16 in my hometown of
Skunthorp in Lincolnshire and cutting a long story short I was walking with my then girlfriend uh walk walking her to her home it was a late August evening perhaps about 900 p.m. at night and um as we passed by my comprehensive School uh fields that were on the left and
There was a large gardening area which in England we called an allotment where people grow vegetables that kind of thing so it was very dark there was no uh lights on the pathway at that time there is now and in the distance there were houses with all the power on and
Then as we were by the field so at the darkest Point uh we both noticed a bright white light moving from our right to left perhaps at a 60° angle and it had no distinct shape but it was much larger than the background Stars it was a Bary
August Night there was no clouds and so it kind of stood out uh but what immediately struck me was no noise and it was like appeared to be silently moving from our right to left now if you can imagine that you’re walking on a straight line path and then the object passes across
Your path you then become behind it and as soon as we became behind it all the power in the housing in front of us the whole area was like a power cut it was like a scene from um Close Encounters of Third Kind where Richard draus is
Looking down on the city after his in and seeing it go off grid by grid we watched it go a little bit more to our left again s appeared to be totally silent no distinct sh and then there seemed to be a second power cup now at
The time I had my bicycle with me so I said get on the crossbar to my girlfriend and I’m going to ride two of us at the same time and I’m going to ride you to the end of this Alleyway which would have been another perhaps
Another 100 meters to get to the end and then I would have turned right and her house was approximately 300 M from the right at the end of the alleyway I did that racing as fast as I could all the housing is in darkness and then I get
Obviously drop her off and then race back to the same Alleyway the object is still a long way in front it’s pitch black I ride down the alleyway as fast as I could I then turn right onto a long Ro called gr L sou and I’m pedling like
Mad and literally I’m trying to look at the light which is moving very slowly silently in the general direction of where I lived and What I noticed that when I was approaching a left hand Bend near to my house the power was on so if you can imagine it’s pitch black no
Power and then in the distance 100 meters away as you’re quickly approaching you see that all the power’s on so as I reached that uh Corner the power was on I went into where the light was on and I looked over my right shoulder and I distinctly remember being
Slightly ahead of the light i’ managed to get ahead of the light because it was moving so slowly I go around two corners my house was in Beale road which was number three it was at the beginning of the street I Dro My Bike outside I rush into the
Living room and say to my parents who having supper as English people do at about 9:00 at night and I said come outside I think there’s going to be a power cup caused by this strange light and they just look at me be amused they don’t stand up or anything so I rush
Through the hall into the kitchen out the back door down to the bottom of my garden turn around to look back at my semi- detached house just in time to see the object literally higher up higher altitude but coming over my rooftop and I was at the bottom of the garden
And I to this day I don’t know why he did it but I instinctively put my hand up like a maning a questioning class and I guess it was to make a 90 degrees and as soon as the object went past me past my hand and therefore I was behind its
Flight path the entire area was plunged into a powercup literally just like that now how ridiculous is that how can I predict a power cut I had no interest in the subject up to that point but I realized then that that object whatever it was have been moved geographically
From one position to another by about three4 of a mile to a mile that that object whatever it was must have interacted with power grid because it was ridiculous to for me to predict a power cup so that’s really where it stem from a childhood sighting oh that’s an
Amazing sighting it’s very rare it lasted for several minutes uh well I guess I guess over overall it would have been I guess 10 10 15 minutes maybe 10 that’s extreme extremely well um I don’t know maybe it’s a bias from my part but I’ve noticed that in the UK uh which has
A small area of land there is a very high concentration of uh very interesting cases uh is that bias because um it’s English spoken language so it’s much easier to get information from that Source or have you noticed that there is sort of gigantic hotpots above the UK I think I think
Historically at certain periods of time there have been flaps as we would say in UFO terms where there’s a certain increase in a certain area and I remember and I live in in in the largest county which which is called Yorkshire which is basically on the map Central to
The map uh and and it actually comprises of three counters uh West Yorkshire uh East Yorkshire and South Yorkshire on and north on nor North Yorkshire so it’s a very big and it’s it’s split into different to three different police forces and it’s that big uh and there is
A concentration in the West Yorkshire area historically where I lived and still live and uh and I should say from the 80s and early 90s there was a preponderance of stings in this kind of uh West Yorkshire area going out towards the Lancer border that’s not as apparent as it was but
It’s an example of at times there is an increase people will talk about um Scotland and bonnybridge uh that has allegedly many many sightings uh historically I I kind of doubt that because I’ve never really seen any evidence of that for good sightings but historically Britain has had excellent
Cases but I suspect that many uh countries have the same but a lot of it boils down to how the media report on the the subject um whilst the mainstream media in the UK AB always stigmatized It generally occasionally you would have a very good story well covered especially in
Regional media not the national media Regional media generally report more factually than the mainstream media who just want to see a flashy headline um but I think that in England there is a huge wealth of cases that have always got into the regional papers and then some of them would emerge into the
National papers but in the regional newspapers uh it’s been well reported and I think that’s where we have secured a lot of anecdotal evidence going back to the say the 50s and this came apparent to me when I launched my police database proof Us in 2002 that’s that’s
How I became known in the subject I created an unofficial National Database for British police officers to record their sightings and also look at any historical sightings and you know that’s still running it’s not the main focus of my attention like it was because I’ve Diversified
I’ve done renam I did the UFO truth magazine and online easy I’m also like you said vice president of is so I don’t do it as in depth as I used to but the current figures are something like 550 British police cases going back to 191 um uh involving well over a thousand
British police officers uh a lot of that is anecdotal newspaper reports but especially where their officers are named and there are quotes from them then they they hold much more criteria for me uh and I’m currently uh going back to finish off my uh police proof
Force book now uh which I began kind of six years ago but then put on hold uh for the documentary and what led to the book on non-human onr Forest so it’s a strange kind of quir that I’m going back to finish the book that I started six
Years ago so that’s what I would like to get out this year is is finally to reveal many of the police cases that have come to me over the years that I’ve actually kept back and not put put up on the uh the website because basically if
You put them M onto the website people go take them and write books about them so so I tend to now uh keep some of the better cases back for when I write the book which will hopefully be out this year so uh that’s what I’m going back to
So I I kind of want to do that but I think we have a wealth of excellent cases in the UK and there’s an an excellent series of books if you’re into like reference books called the ha haunted Skies series especially the first uh first eight volumes they’re
From the 40s right the way up to say the the 80s those books are well worth getting they they’re by John Hansen H and his then partner Dawn Holloway the early books of them were excellent they’re not as good now in my opinion but the first few books historically a
Great treasure Trove of UFO stings historically over Britain uh there you know the the best books uh UK wise yes there you go that is a that first book is a classic in my opinion and everyone should if you’re interested in reference material going back to UK they did great
Work and the first eight books are their best uh right up to the 80s uh and you know I’d leave it at that but the first few books were excellent uh circling back to mass media have you noticed a a change of journalistic work since the initiative
From Christopher melan and Londo back in 2017 oh yeah the there is a huge um change seed change in many ways under undergoing it’s still not there but it it is changing because um whilst you always had a kind of like when I’ve been on TV on on mainstream TV uh before the
Segment they would always have a bit of kind of Twilight Zone music there’d always be somebody sniggering in the corner either before or afterwards or you know even on the when you’re on featuring on the news the newscaster after the piece would say well I hope you’re safe in tonight it’d be something
Some quick now that’s all stopped because of the events that been taking place in America however it’s slaugh to trickle down and historically England has always followed America’s lead but not since 2017 uh if you think of 2017 the special relationship that England and the UK
Have always us and the UK have always had well now it comes to UAP as it’s now called I still prefer UFO it’s a much sexier term for me uh but UAP is what’s now uh deemed the norm the the right way to discuss it professionally so fair
Enough but historically uh we’ve gone different ways because we haven’t followed Amica America’s lead um they when they started to introduce legislation in 2021 that uh required the uh the Pentagon to provide a report for the first time things like that it was reported very poorly in the UK uh you
Know there’s no major coverage very few TV interviews then again in 2022 and then with everything that’s happened and the Schumer Amendment really very little has been reported in the mainstream media they have covered it but they don’t go in depth and they don’t invite people on to have an in-depth serious
Discussion I mean we have some great political programs like newsight uh on BBC now I once was invited many years ago but it it did just didn’t happen for the logistics I’d love to go back onto a mainstream media now and say look why aren’t you covering things like the the
Schumer Amendment uh the recent uh developments with a soul Foundation uh and the the kind of you know rear Admiral Tim galade coming out and saying you know we are dealing with a non-human intelligence Gary nans work with meta materials and things like that we should
Be covering it a lot more but the at itude is improving and in fact today uh a couple of months ago I recorded uh I did three hours of filming in R Forest principally about the book and all the the 17 new incidents that I’d listed and
On on screen today on ITV big morning program called this morning we ended up with a four minute segment introduced like we’re telling the story and I was on there for maybe a minute and a half of what was a four minute segment with cutaways and photographs and whatever it
Was actually done quite well for ITV independent television news as the way they cover covered things in the past by their standards it was pretty good but it still has a long way to go because we should be talking about this on the six o’clock news we should be discussing
This politically because of the ramifications of technological change the fact that so many uh very high caliber people now are coming out and saying we’re dealing with non-human intelligence whether it extraterrestrial interdimensional intra infra whatever you want to call it uh we’re dealing with some kind of intelligence uh and
And this should now really be on people’s agenda and apart from the odd article serious piece The Observer uh the guardian and things like that recently we’re not getting enough coverage it’s not like the United States where there is a lot more coverage so I think the UK has not
Followed uh their lead um with all requiring government uh uh and intelligence community in the UK to provide the same kind of services now I’m not going to go into it but there should be some Development coming out from me in the next uh three to four
Weeks uh about a major new development with regards to pilots in the UK um but I’ll talk about that once that’s up and running we might come back to that uh but uh suffice to say that the recent bill that’s been introduced produced in the United States for Pilots uh with the
FAA you know that’s that is kind of where I’m going to come froms shortly um so that’s something for the future and to be honest there are only two countries in the world where the pilots can report UFOs and the data is immediately available publicly it’s
Switzerland and the UK so to us to to UK for for that points in all the other countries we had to to do for you to obtain that type of data um regarding the the media response I was quite astonished because last year we saw Lords questioning the ministry of
Defense on the issue on the issue of U and the ministry of Defense remained mute in the face has this always been the attitude of the British Ministry of Defense yes the I’m I’m very critical of the Ministry of Defense the UK Ministry of Defense because in my opinion they’ve
Lied consistently they’ve downplayed the subject consistently uh the renon forest case in terms of uh its significance many people Rec will say it’s now the second most important case in UFO history because it’s not one incident it’s according to my book 17 different incidents over at least three possibly
Four consecutive nights of activity well that’s a lot of different things that scene more sightings are one-off events uh and and can be excellent but there’s very few that are in depth and they keep coming back and there’s different shaps different experiences we you know one of
The the people that I mention in the book uh uh is a guy called am and Steve rerro who who who said to me in an interview uh that he was inside the nuclear weapon storage area uh walking around he’d literally just gone onto shift he was walking around with an
Experienced Airman within the most secure part of arf bentwaters the nuclear weapon storage area the wsa and uh he then sees a UFO by defense line uh coming over from the forest Tree Line uh that then shines a beam down into the nuclear bunkers now we’d had
Rumors before of at or near but we’d never had a named witness well Herman st lerro came along and said I was inside and it did like a gridlike pattern of the hot Row the long line of bunkers which was about 300 meters long and he
Said it was look it was arcing from one side to the other as if it was making some kind of a a check of what was in like a uh it was making a a kind of an analysis of what was inside and it’s shining a beam down and going the entire
Length of the bunkers before it then flew off towards what turned out to be rless from forest so that is is a major testimony itself but you try to get that uh what you would think be Front Page News especially on this case into the media that won’t print the story
I’ve sent it to numerous um journalists that I know and it’s old news I it’s not old news this is a named reference this is important there have been many questions asked in Parliament in the past uh by various MPS especially in the 80s and ’90s when the
Case really uh emerged and was really uh brought into the media and and MPS asked questions well you can’t I can’t get any MP to now ask a question uh and why not because we now know so much more you know we have so many more incidents that
We were aware of and I I I you know of the when I broke it down on what was historically known and then came up with the reins and new interviews that I got I br BR it down into 17 different in different events over three possibly four consecutive days and that’s
Incredible and then not at the same time they’re all different all different time events nobody had broken it down like that before and you’d think that that should be kind of big headline news well it isn’t yes I’ve had a lot of coverage but not enough in the mainstream at all
And when you send them a headline you write the story for them no no they just don’t they’re not interested and I’m thinking why you know this should raise questions now of the M mod because they’ve clearly lied you cannot say that 17 different UFO related incidents over several days is not of
Incredible defense significance because it was the Britain’s top strike base in the event of Soviet aggression as it was cold war that was the first line top response base so nuclear Tactical nuclear weapons would have been flown towards uh the Soviet Union so you can’t get any more serious than that and when
Something is doing a what would appear to be some kind of a check uh of what’s the contents of these hardened bunkers in the the the nuclear bunkers then that should be I think six o’ news uh but you can’t get that kind of knowledge I told
This all to the ITV crew and they only give small reference you’re on camera 3 hours filming you’re on camera for a couple of minutes that’s the nature of TV they don’t lie per se but they just admit all the most Salient parts of the information they give you some of the
Information but not all of it and that’s generally how the media has always worked with regard to this subject but you know we’ve come so far I get really frustrated that the the I mean going back to what you said there was like a 12 minute discussion in
2022 in the House of Lords the Upper House you’ve got the House of Commons then you’ve got the House of Lords well there was a 12 minute discussion and I’ve got the uh the I’ve got the video and I’ve obviously got the transcript and when you watched it it was like You’
Gone back to the 1950s you know you’ve got lots of old people there as Lords are most of them are elderly talking about you know it’s like a joke I don’t think anything to this at all you there’s never been anything of defend significance it’s ridiculous you know and there are many
Many excellent pilot cases historically right going right back to the second world war and there really needs to be a serious discussion and this is again one of the reasons why I’m going to be moving shortly towards the the air safety aspect because I we’ve got to
Start getting this raised in the UK because what’s happening in the United States pilot wise is no different what’s happening in France or any other country whether it be on any continent I pretty sure it’s happening in every country on every continent of the world and we’re
Just not addressing it and we need to because these things are around they’re now being detected on better sensors new radar systems that we’ve never had hence why they”re being seen more and there’s a real clear lack of interest from the UK government at the moment
And and I kind of want to go down the line of trying to create some pressure uh on the government to say look we we do need to address this because other countries have beginning to you know I I was very lucky and fortunate to uh give a testimony before Brazilian parment and
That you know was a real honor and they were interested so there’s a few countries that are taking the lead on this and I and I kind of think that America might be worried now that another another country might say this is real and disclose first and start
Releasing a lot more of their intelligence and that would be I think um in a sense Justified for that to happen because America has had the opportunity time and time again and I think with if the Schumer Amendment had a passed in its original form the UAP
Disclosure Act of 2023 that would have been disclosure in all but name at least on paper uh but that was obviously called by several senators and uh and it was gutted to just 19 pages from 64 pages so there is clearly at the moment the intelligence Community has still got
A grip in the US and I think now you know uh car Nell talked about at the uh Stanford University about catastrophic disclosure the risk of some other event either themselves uh uh ackn you know doing some demonstration whether it be another country taking the lead or some
Some other kind of uh whistleblower information coming forward you know we saw the emergence of David grush last year which was excellent I absolutely believe his uh content uh he you know but again the media don’t give Fair Justice to to David gush because they say oh a whistleblowers come
Forward but they then don’t say that he’s actually qualified up to pres presidential briefing level which is the key thing he was the guy that took the presidential briefing papers to the White House handed them over to the president’s uh you know staff and they then brief the president so you cannot
Get a better high quality uh reference than that and yet a lot of the media don’t even mention that and are very select how they they view him but I believe somebody like grush has been a major headache for the intelligence Community even though he’d been in the system
Since 2022 when he’ he he’d given his 11 hours of tesy to the Inspector General but I mean I kind of think now we’re in the ball game post the Schumer gutting uh to say that firsthand whistleblowers involved in retrievals and Legacy programs in a sense should come forward
Now the intelligence community of have held on to this they clearly still want to cling on to it but it’s only a matter of time but I think they’re really vulnerable that’s my honest opinion I think they’re really vulnerable now to another David grush but a firsthand D
Firsthand witness who’s worked on them and who’s got the background to cover himself uh and and check out I think if several firsthand Legacy Witnesses were to come forward now three four five on mass you would be very close to disclosure because there was real interesting gushan especially at the
Congressional Hearing in July that was really a great piece of history the sad thing was it then came just ahead of the summer recess for Congress and that’s when they had then chance to start fighting back um uh there was real momentum following uh that that Congressional hearing where for the
First time genuine Witnesses uh gave information you know Commander David fororo Ryan graes excellent testimony and saying these things are way ahead of those blah blah years ahead of us kind of thing we’ve never had that so there was real momentum and it’s kind of just stumbled recently but the I think the
Intelligence Community are really uh vulnerable to to firstand Witnesses coming forward now or or or shall we say uh important people coming forward saying we’re dealing with nhi I think that’s a real problem that the intelligence Community will struggle to deal with and personally without breaking classification ations and I
Understand that having been in the military and played to a secret level in the past in the Royal Air Force Police you know I know how classification works we don’t want people to go to prison but uh if you think about David grush he’s gone back to doser uh and got
Cleared to to release some more information shortly which he says he’s going to do well I think there’s a lot of these firstand Witnesses could maybe go back to dobster and say look in a roundabout way can I generalize and make further statements now publicly and I
Think there’d probably be a very good chance of that uh and I think because if they’re going to let rush do it why won’t they they let people paraphrase their testimony that they gave to the Inspector General so I I personally hope that uh firstand Witnesses come out on
Mass and I think there is real um protection in numbers what are they going to do send them all to prison ah you’re a traitor you go straight to prison it’s not going to happen and people do genuinely I think now realize especially in the media even though they
Not might not necessarily be reporting on it but I think on TV places like the New York Times They said recently either put up or shut up I agree with that let’s kind of get these whistleblowers to come forward but on mass and there safety in numbers uh and it will cause
Huge uh pressure on the intelligence Community to be more transparent you’ve got people like Eric Burleson Congressman Burleson coming out Tim burett Anna Pina Luna doing great work in pushing this and recently only last week we had we had them going into a ski and basically they all came out saying
You know we’ve learned some stuff uh we want a lot a lot more grush seems to be corroborated They’re all playing around what they can actually say but you reading between the lines then they they’re now much more convinced of Rush’s testimony as they should be and
They want to more have more questions and field hearings things like that so we’re in an incredible time this is for me the most uh exciting time in UFO history in my lifetime I’m now 63 I had a sighting at 16 I can’t think of ever a time where there is such a
Tangible closeness to a disclosure breakthrough H and let me just make it clear what I think disclosure is disclosure will be when you turn on the news channel of your TV on every News Channel 247 basically for days weeks on end when this breaks a bit like if you think of
The covid and how that was all covered it was mass mass mass every channel go co well it be like that it’s similar to a terrorist incident massive terrorist incident it’s w to wall coverage well it’ll be like that when you when you have have disclosure it will be on every
News Channel and it’ll be 247 for several days weeks on it because most people uh will say that it’s the most profound will be the most profound moment in human history that we’re not alone whatever it is we’re not alone so I think that’s where I’m coming from so
There’s all you know it’s a very exciting time now talking about disclosure um I was quite interested in one of the documents coming from one of the rare documents coming from the UK Ministry of Defense it’s the conine report and you could almost blatantly see in the text
The split personality disorder of the people that to put it together because in one sentence you had so the phenomenon can disconnect your navigation system disconnect your engine disconnect your radio but it doesn’t represent a manise to your flight and you had that in the 80 pages of the
Report and the only part of the report that was fully sensored was rad tracks of the phenomena and I I just find that document so representative of the current debate and access of information regarding uaps at governmental level um how do you consider of a conine report
Report yeah yeah it’s it’s it’s it’s a very interesting document and it’s clear that what was written was was written based on a lot of information that they had that the public didn’t have and yet they just couldn’t bring themselves to say we’re dealing something that is really intelligent and does not appear
To be manmade shall we say it’s not fore an adversary um yeah they still want to talk about plasmas and things like that but it’s an important document and of course it was a I think it was a classified as Above Top Secret so it was
You UK only so it was a very highly uh classified document yeah absolutely um in a recent article published by Jack valet in the debrief uh he blames the UK and the US regarding the block of a proposal in the United Nations regarding UAP in
1978 uh in your opinion uh what was the involvement of the UK during that event well what you’ve got to understand is that in 1978 uh America has always being the dominant Force probably because of Roswell and the really new and they did could I do believe Roswell was real they
Did recover material they probably been re reverse engineering and crash retrievals all of that is almost certainly true I think and and David gush is kind of echoing that but we’ve long suspected that based on a lot of events over the years I think that like for many many decades
The UK always followed America’s lead um because it was always seen as our principal Ally and vice versa now that special relationship was basically built on the second world war and that largely still exists so when you go back to 78 it was brought forward by Grenada and
Sir Eric Gary who who wanted to bring it to the United Nations well at that time America was still very very secretive uh they did not want any real genuine scrutiny of the subject and so they kind of let him have a small bit of time at
The UN but it was clear when you read between the lines and there are there of documents that been published like uh minutes from uh internal Ministry defense documents that show that between them America and the UK basically just paid lip service to the initiative right we’ll give them
A few hours to talk about it yeah there’ll be a few experts there but it’s not really going to go away we’ll leave it on file uh and then amazingly a couple months later there’s a coup and uh and he’s not in power anymore problem solved now a lot of people would say
That’s a coincidence maybe it wasn’t maybe it was I don’t know but within months he was OU in in the coup Eric Gary and thee and and essentially from the American and the UK point of view the problem went away it was left on file and if you if you’re aware of uh
Iser the International Coalition which I’m uh vice president of is of the International Coalition for extraterrestrial research we now have scientists academics um leading UAP research 30 countries involved and essentially we wanted to try to resurrect uh something like that uh that happened in 78 with Granada and we did
Through a small More Country San Marino which has held many UFO conferences and actually often uh donated towards their uh you know putting them on Etc is a long association with an Italian Italian group called Central ethologica uh International Kun nationali uh Kun C uh under Roberto PTI who is also the
President of that organization and he’s also the president of Isa well they had this long running good dialogue with ministers at the Submarina government and when Isa launched in May of 2021 one of the first things that we wanted to do is to see if we could uh get this small
Country to back a project that we ended up calling project Titan and that eventually did get passed in the in the government and uh there was a vote and they said yet we’ll adopt that and in theory it was a vote uh to petition the United States sense really to go um have
This discussed at the UN like it had been in 1978 we’ll cut in a long story short it’s now on hold uh not through any fault of Isa but basically there has been some turmoil uh we are told in the submarino government several ministers have resigned for non UFO related
Reasons and uh it looks like there are going to have to be new elections in the next few months in this in in in tamarina for a new government and they will hopefully then pick up what is on file this resolution that was passed to to to follow upon project Titan so
Whilst it’s temporarily off for 2023 we’d hoped it would come to fruition November December at the late session in the UN in in that year we talked to a lot of eminent people um who were involved originally with the first time round uh in 78 you
Know uh we’ve talked to a number of officials who involved in those delegations uh unfortunately it was put on hold so there’s not not a lot we can do about that but we’re hopeful that in the next few months it will get picked up again by the someone in the new
Government and then we’d be looking if that came to provision we’d be looking at going to the UN the UN November December January end of this year early part of 2025 so again hopefully that can get resurrected but the whole point is that there was clear there is clear
Documentation to sure that in 1978 the last thing the the US wanted was scrutiny uh or or highlighting uh the uh the subject of UFOs and and their credibility they wanted to keep it now and the UK and the US combined to basically just give lip service to the
Grenader initiative and it kind of went away uh so it wasn’t really a in my opinion a serious attempt to to get a full debate on the on the floor of the the UN um and that’s what obviously I is going to try to do now uh sooner or
Later it’s got to go to the UN um because it’s really the only World body that we have uh and it has a lot of flaws and without getting into Political dialogue the the you know the the recent uh the current war in in Gaza
And Israel has shown up a lot of faults of the historical system with the United Nations and the power of certain countries having vetos and things like that uh it doesn’t perhaps function as good as it it it should do it basically should be one country one vote no matter
What size country in my opinion that’s what it should be but it’s not and there’s a lot of politics involved but eventually I do think if we have breakthroughs say in the next year two years is as I really think we will have
Um it will end up on the floor of the UN where there will be proper debate because the world has to start coming together as the human race uh we you know we’re very much bogged down in in national uh countries and uh you know a little Association of countries and
Whatever we’ve got to start thinking that there is only one human race and whatever this non-human intelligence is it’s interacting with us and it’s on every continent and we now need to start looking at globally having a discussion about its implications how we deal with it how we
Try to contact if that’s not already happened behind closed doors the problem is is politics is very very complicated and unfortunately in in the last 20 30 years we live more and more in a world of Spin and and whatever country whatever organization would have put a spin
Beenin on things and we you know and we now have we we now bogged down in in you know in in in where where a lot of headlines are deemed you know fake news you know you so who is telling the truth we’ we’ve kind of lost our way I think
But in terms of a a discussion I I I really foresee in the in the next year to two years if developments keep going at the rate they’re going that there will be a breakthrough moment whether you call it disclosure or whatever but as and when and if that happens there
Has to be a realization that this is not just America it’s not just the UK it’s every country of the world has being affected by these things all countries are having their a space um violated for want better word or air safety implications and there needs to be a
Broad discussion and there needs to be I think a real standardization uh with all countries about how these events are recorded there should really only be one system worldwide for the reporting of of UAP in my opinion but that seems farfetched at the moment you know when you is struggling to get
One country to deal with it and do it properly but I think ultimately down the line things have to be standardized and I think that’s maybe where the UN could come in but you know that’s just my thoughts but I I do believe that it it
Has to go to a global discussion sooner rather than later because you know we’re dealing probably with not just one I I personally believe that a lot is extraterrestrial but I also totally open to the fact that there may well be Lost Civilization that lives in our deep
Deepest ocean trenches I’ve been saying that for 10 years or so uh I’ve also uh you know uh believe now that B on the higs borson particle the God particle and uh things in quantum physics quantum entanglement that there may well be interdimensional aspects that some other
Intelligence has found a way to move from their sphere of life to ours uh I’m open to all of that and we have to be because you have to have an open mind I suspect It’s a combination of all those things and I suspect that uh from an ET
Point of view uh that there’s multiple species and that’s born out by the fact that on every continent even in third world countries people are describing very similar events through the contact experience of phenomenon um that’s been going on for decades John Matt you know picked up on it and said these people
Are you know experiencing real events and they’re not just you know um crazy people uh and I think that if you look at the contact side as difficult as that is for many people to get their head there are so many um commonalities of species all around the world and you
Know like I say in the third world we don’t have access to Media Radio TV Etc they still describe basically essentially the same contact experience well how can that be and that that kind of confirms that it’s taking place for me because they don’t have the access to
The media and and so that’s in those contact experiences they are basically saying in there from elsewhere as in from space from somewhere else in space so that says to me that there is an ET side uh but the point is it’s probably a combination of all these things you know
And I often I often tell people and I’ve said it for a long time uh in the media that the film The Abyss uh which is great Hollywood film about deep ocean trenches we only know 5% of the ocean if you were going to have the civilization
That literally just wanted to be kept separate I would do it in the deepest trenches where we don’t go and uh and and basically there is such a a huge uh wealth of cases from uh objects going in and out of large bodies of water that
Kind of makes sense to me and and and I think that’s who are interested whatever that is whether it’s extraterrestrial or some ancient human or some non human pre- civilization to us uh that’s been here I think that’s why they’re interested in nuclear weapons because it’s their habitat too if we destroy
This beautiful planet that’s so rich in life water and bner uh I think that would be a huge tragedy and I think they think that that nuclear weapons are a direct risk to their habitat and I think that’s why uh the UFOs are seen over nuclear facilities worldwide um but most
People aren’t even aware of that because the Press rarely report on that factually um so I think it’s a combination of all these things but we’re living in an age now where we I think we’re very close to to to saying a real breakthrough and then the world has
Got to start dealing with this in a way that it’s never done so before and there may well be a lot of ontal chock uh because the way the media falsely reported under reported the significance of what’s going on there may well be a blacklash uh I think eventually to uh
When it comes out to the United States uh and who can blame people I think there might be a blacklash from the media to the United States governments and the intelligence community and why not and because they’ve lied for 80 years in my opinion like basically David
Gush uh has confirmed now if that happens uh I think we should go down the line of Truth and Reconciliation hearings I’ve been advocating this for a good 10 years as well uh that’s the best way to do it that’s how South Africa got over the aparte regime yes some people
Went to prison and if people have broken the law and they they’ve lied to Congress uh willfully lied to Congress and Senate and government uh then I think they some those people should go to prison as well but basically you have anybody who’s involved in this they give
Their testimony you say thanks very much now we know because we want to get the history right once it emerges it’s not about persecution it’s not about retribution it’s about let’s get the full facts of what’s happened so we can tell this story honestly uh for for
Decades to come to our children that are going to follow us and they’ll want to know really what was done when it all emerged and the lies that were t so I think I think that would be the way to go down with when the story breaks
But there’s so much happening at the moment I can’t remember ever a time when um there has been so much major developments on in many countries do you feel the UK could block Sun Marino’s initiative uh I doubt it because I I think that at the moment uh they will
Probably think well it’s not going to go anywhere um you know they’ll probably take that attitude in the way that they’re publicly uh dealing with the subject they probably say they’re not interested or even even aware of it behind the scenes who knows uh I mean we have we have the real
Um um conundrum because um I think in last year Canadian MP Larry Maguire um published a letter that talked about the fact I eyes agreement uh Australia New Zealand the US America France uh and basically they they basically said that uh there had been briefings for the five
Eyes about crash retrievals and things like that and that kind of stirred up a bit of a hornet’s nest but so few people saw that or realized the significance of that so I think it’s all very still very deeply guarded uh but it it kind of
Hints that there’s a lot more going on behind the scenes so who knows what strings are pulled behind closed doors when a when a politician or a a diplomat Rings another Diplomat and says uh you know I just want to have a quick word about this we don’t know uh and and I’m
Not really going to speculate beyond that because I can’t prove it um but maybe there there is some knowledge but I clearly think that the UK government uh and the five eyes uh uh agreement uh basically does know a lot more than it’s telling the UK public uh and I and and
Again that’s an area where I want to start researching in the future so uh you just published an astonishing book and I can’t recommend it enough I it just impressed me so much just so much work concentrated in that single book is just amazing so congratulation for publishing it uh I
Was amazed by by reading it it’s non-human redam Forest UFO incidence 42 years of denial what is the renam forest UFO incident and what denial are you referring to okay for those people who are not aware of the Reynold from forest incident it’s it’s regarded as Britain’s
Roswell it’s a famous UFO case is Britain’s most famous case but in historical UFO terms um because of some of the things that I’ll go on to explain uh many people think of it in UFO world history as the second most important UFO related case in history after Roswell in 1947 which
Is this seminal moment when something crashes and it I believe is retrieved and possibly bodies etc etc that’s non human now Ron Forest uh basically is a forest that lies between between two uh us bases called Arif pent Waters and Arif Woodbridge that were located basically 80 miles Northeast from London
So if on a map is basically out towards the coast on the North Eastern side uh of the of the coastline on the co east east east coast and uh basically over several successive nights at least three I now believe with the testimony that I’ve uh obtained in the book that we’re
Looking at probably four consecutive nights multiple incidents uh and in the book and its conclusions you basically I I break down in a way that’s never been done before 17 different UFO timed events over what is a 4- day period And I think that they uh show a wide variety
Of different objects different shapes um including Witnesses by what are potentially hundreds of Airmen many uh US Air Force Police who were predominantly the ones who’ gone on the record uh but we we suspect there are many many more and I still think there’s a lot of witnesses who still never go on
The record because of everything that’s associated with classification being told never to talk about it but basically over several nights of activity in the forest and on the bases so it’s not just in the forest there are these various different UFO related events taking place for example um
There’s an aan called Steve lerro he’s inside the nuclear weapon storage area he sees a UFO shining a beam down into the bunkers he’s a firstand witness he’s a direct firstand witness he gave me an into and he said I saw youf for shine a beam now as I’m walking inside the
Weapon storage area and it then proceeds to do like a grid light search of all the bunkers of a like a 300 meter section of what was the most secure aspect you’ve got a landed Craft on at least two occasions the first one was well known because it was mentioned by
Leftenant Colonel Holt in his famous document What’s called the Hal memorandum that emerged in 1983 to The Wider world and um and basically he also signed it and said I saw multiple UFOs as well on the night I was out on one of the nights well uh one of the uh big
Things that was mentioned initially by the original military whistleblower which is an Airman called Larry Warren he’d said there’d be this other Landing um and uh where the incident uh was filmed that the base commander Gordon Williams turned up along with other senior officers and that there were
Entities seeing and there was some kind of silent face off maybe telepathic communication well that has been deemed controversial for a long time and there was very little corroboration to that but the one person that really did corroborate it in the end was a sergeant called Sergeant Adrien bastina who I
Tried to get old of for many years but he was very reluctant and been very traumatized by his involvement in this in a number of incidents it turns out not just one as was originally thought involving him but it turns out that he was involved in multiple incidents and
Did confirm to me in a four and a half hour transatlantic phone call uh through the night for me into the early hours and it was exhausted me that this second incident had taken place he corroborated Larry Warren 100% and their stories really D to really well he was being filmed that
Gordon Williams the base commander of 12,000 Personnel turned up uh he didn’t like to talk about entities he found it very difficult he was religious he didn’t like talking about it um and he did refer to them basically as Silhouettes he saw something moving that was Silhouettes that was his
Interpretation but there was some kind of life form there and and and it was all being filmed it was all being surrounded by us Force Security Police now for him to come out in an interview to me like that that was like the real probably the most important uh UFO
Related interview I’ve ever done in my life because I knew the context of of what it meant and there was this final collaboration so we finally have that now and he has subsequently read the book and said it’s great book and blah blah blah and and and fully endorsed
Everything and our interviews and everything and and for him to do that it answered this major question that everything that had been denied by leftenant Colonel H who who was the original Deputy base commander he’d gone on the record written this H memorandum great document very important document
Because it confirms an initial landing on what was classed as the first night of the event and then a couple of nights later he went out with a team of their officers H Airman and officers and and basically they saw multiple UFOs himself but one of the things that came out of
The book is that it’s complicated and I call it the most complex case in UFO history because there’s so many moving back there’s a lot of politics behind the scene going on and I used to have a seven-year collaboration period with leftenant Colonel H uh from 2007 when I
First met him through to about late 2014 but eventually I ended that because I realized he wasn’t telling me as much as he said he was going to tell me he was told me he tell me everything he didn’t uh and there were things that I believed
He was not telling me uh and subsequently I I kind prove that H and basically he’d been present at this second Lon and yet he denied it he’ ridiculed um em and L Warren and now here we have we’ve got Sergeant Adrien bza who said no actually happened like
That there was a second land it was film blah blah blah and he denied his involvement in that so HT is a very good witness to part of the incident but in the end I had issue with him because he knew a lot more and for
Me I think he had agendas to to not tell the whole story H and we kind of allude to that because there was a very good book written by a a um a a nono person called Georgina brunai uh that’s called you can’t tell the people and it was I
Think released in the year 2000 excellent book uh in many ways mine’s an update 23 years on kind of from that and and she set it out and did a really good job but she said that at one point leftenant Colonel HT on the telephone
Had said to her I have over five hours of audio material he took out on the night he was out he had a little dictaphone and uh he made intermittent all the story is he made little intermittent update of a of what was a live ongoing UFO events well he told
Georgina brunai that he could never tell her what exactly what he had uh but he had almost five hours of material now why is GE Gina brunai going to make up and publish a lie like that it’s in her book I’ve seen it on video being
Interviewed and said he gave me this you know told me there was five hours all we have now in the public domain is 18 minutes so that hints that there are some things not quite right and I believe personally that Holt knows a lot more as does Jim pennis and as does John
BOS probably uh but essentially it’s a complicated case with a lot of factions don’t forget the US government don’t want this story of this second Landing to come out that’s being filmed because it wasn’t filmed on steel cameras it was filmed on Motion Picture footage and we
Know that because Captain Mike varano P picked up the base commander G Williams drove him to an F uh 16 fighter arth bentwaters and on the way he’s carrying like some kind of top secret uh Satchel or bag and he say what’s in the bag and
He basically says it’s video of the of the UFO so it was from the night of this second Landing well it it it it Beggars belief you know where is that film now that’s corroborated by Sergeant Adrien vtina and and in an interesting thing that you may or may not have picked up
In the book when I kind of look at other ways to to corroborate or or or confirm that there was this second Landing event one of them belonged uh to a lady who was the uh who worked at the Pentagon and she was an foi uh liazon officer and
A US muon investigator called Ray bue um cutting a long story short she was told by this he got to know this lady over a period of time because of f foi requests that he’d been submitting and she said uh one time that she’d heard us Pilots
Talking about the renon video and seeing this craft and yet in her records there was nothing but she said that she’d actually overheard them the pilots talking about seeing the renon video so that alludes to me that the video was real H and with what sergeant adri BS
Are corroborated it’s out there whether it’s it’s still in the existence who knows I suspect it is it’s probably in that big hanger where they put everything else as you know like Raiders are lost out all the best evidence gets hidden uh and whether it ever emerges I
Don’t know but do I think there was a real motion picture video uh footage taken of that second Landing yes and I think that was the real big story as to why there had been so much politics and so much criticism of of am Warren because he was the one that said it
Happened he actually had come out many years earlier than the likes of Colonel Holt Jim pennis sergeant pennis and John boros they all had to retire before they could start speaking so am and Warren had been out on his own for about eight years before they started retiring and
As soon as they retired they really started to go after Warren say it’s a lad of rubbish but now we know it’s not and uh you know so thank you Adrian but Sergeant Adrian uh and and it hints at there’s a lot more internal politics going on and and
And the approach that I took to the book was I was a detective for 19 years H and I was an advanced interviewer of suspect Witnesses and uh that was my bag I liked interviewing people and I thought if I’m going to write a book about renon it
Better be accurate uh because I’m going to put my name to it and and two I best go back to day one and and have a reinvestigation and see if there’s anything else I can find and when I did this deep dive back into Old historical documents I found a wealth of old
Interviews that probably nobody had ever read uh or very few people other than UFO officios had ever seen and and yet they contained some early valuable accounts uh of of of of interview with Witnesses and so again uh I brought all that to the book and my
Idea was not to bring personality into it I wanted to just look at all the information and present it to the public in a way that had never been presented before and do it in a kind of forensic through detectives eyes of analyzing the evidence uh looking at interviews
Assessing what was said and making reasoned um conclusions based on what had come out in these interviews and that’s what I done I took sentiment out of it and I presented the facts and the overwhelming response I’ve had uh from both the public and from the researchers
Is that it’s a a very unusual UFO book because it’s a forensic examination of a case and no I absolutely agree it’s we will end the interiew the first part of the interview on that because I really can’t recommend your book enough because there are very I know maybe two others
In the whole genre of UFO books that really did an investigation where the reader can look at the piece of documentation the auor is talking about and we have first the documents and then your analysis and then we can picture in your in our mind what is our
Interpretation of both and it is so rare it’s something we find in academic papers and in proper investigation and for whatever reason it’s not used in UFO cases while it should be the best place to use that method so uh really if you are interested in that subject you
Really need to read that book it will teach you everything you need to know about a very important case but especially you will learn the proper method of looking at a UFO case that’s what you should do when you’re looking into UFO case not listening to an interview or looking at videos on
YouTube that will tell you Marvels and overw worldly counts look at proper documentation look at real investigation and you will realize there is always a blur investigation you never have perfect level of information when you have a clear picture it’s a wrong picture there is there are always
Shadows in reality so thank you very much for that work you lished it’s it’s a monument for me in ethology because it is so rare to find a level of depth in a UFO book so thank you very much for your time thank you very much for your book
And we will see each other in another interview when we will do a deep dive on the render case I’m honored by your kind words I just wanted to present the fact and and I and I think like I say I self-published because basically a lot of the facts
Were being hidden through politics and I didn’t do any self- publicity for the book I self-published on Amazon it’s only available on Amazon but I kind of now with the response and the feedback that I’ve had I’d like to find a publisher a mainstream publisher so
Maybe it can be um published in in in other languages like a lot of mainstream books would do um I wanted to just get the truth out there there was no pre publicity it was a for me it was a it was I’m not bothered about money I want
I’m passionate about this subject and I just wanted to get the facts out there and put them over in a way that anybody could pick up reference to all the things that I was going to talk about and people could see just how much there
Was of the case I and and I think I’ve done that with the response that I’ve had and the feedback I’m I’m humbled uh you know and I was really uh very humbled when um uh Donald Smith who is the the well-known author of many Roswell books
Most refer to him as the the leading Roswell expert in the world I kind of went to him I knew him through Isa and I said you know would you write the uh the forward and and he did and then when I read it I was almost in tears because he
Was so um briming uh with prayers for it I was unexpected to to get that kind of level of prayers uh and he described it as like a a forensic book and there’s very few books like this so I I I’m I’d like to get it to a wider audience now
Uh I publishing on on Amazon is good and I’m grateful to that but I don’t have the means to to take it and the distribution and all the uh publicity that comes along with the mainstream book now it’s out there I’ve not heard nothing from hul penis and boros people
Who would attack lightly attack me before the book would come out out because they didn’t want the evidence or they didn’t want a clinical assessment of their involvement um no bad words nothing at all so I feel feel confident now to say look uh let’s find a publisher and let’s really bring this
Case out and publicize it to a wider world who are still largely unaware of it and it’s significant absolutely thank you very much for your time Gary you’re welcome of course here anytime and it has been a real pleasure listening to you thank you very much
Baptist and if you give me your address I will send you a sign copy oh thank you but I buy my own books that’s that’s very kind of you but I insist I buy my own books and I next time I come to the UK I will gather a signature from you
Okay and and and I can’t thank you enough for the high prayers that you’ve given it so yeah I anytime you want to have a discussion I’m fully up to date on all the events given my role in iser and and world events so I’m very keen to get
Involved in discussions at a global level because that’s where we’ve got to be aiming there is only one human race and we have to start coming together as a human race absolutely absolutely I couldn’t agree more thank you very much Gary goodbye goodbye