Iain Dale hosted Cross Question 24/01 | Watch Again

Iain Dale was joined by:

Dean Russell – Conservative MP for Watford, who is a former Business Minister.
George Monbiot – Columnist for The Guardian and environmental campaigner.
Greg Swenson – Chair of Republicans Overseas UK – who works in investment banking.
Kirsten Oswald – SNP Women and Equalities spokesperson in Westminster, and MP for East Renfrewshire.

#lbc #iaindale #crossquestion

Or say Alexa send a comment to LBC and of course if you want to watch us you can do so on global player on your radio on global player and play LBC leading Britain’s conversation this is LBC from Global’s Newsroom I’m Charlotte Morgan the government rejected the idea of conscription following comments made by the head of the military s Patrick Sanders says Britain should train a citizen’s Army to prepare for a possible future War Major General Jonathan Shaw has told LBC he agrees the Russian

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Global’s Newsroom for LBC I’m Charlotte Morgan this is LBC from global leading Britain’s conversation cross question with Ian Dale hello very good evening 2 minutes past 8 is the time W stay’s cross question on the panel for you tonight we have George Momo columnist for the guardian and environmental

Campaign Kirsten Oswald s SMP women and equality spokesperson in Westminster and MP for East rer Greg Swenson is Chairman of Republicans overseas UK and works in Investment Banking and Dean Russell is a cons is conservative MP for Watford and former business Minister 0345 6060 973 if you’d like to ask them a question

Over the course of the next hour and of course you can watch us on global player call 0345 6060 973 tweet at LBC text 84850 cross question with Ian Dale this is LBC let’s go to our first caller it’s Lily in Three Rivers in hartfordshire hopefully none of the flood

Lily yeah fortunately the flooding hasn’t hit us too bad good what would you like to ask yeah so I was wondering why does the government still have money to fund tax cuts when they still haven’t got enough money to fund our crumbling Public Services I think this is a questions a

Lot of people are asking and and thinking well if this wasn’t an election year Dean Russell would there be tax cuts well I would hope so I mean that the argument consistently has been let’s got get the economy into a better shape you know with the pandemic has massively

Hit us so as the war in Ukraine which has know Global impact but my view is very different perhaps from from some which is that the idea that it’s an either or you either spend some money on the Public Services or you do tax cuts

My take is that a tax cut goes back into the people’s pockets they’ll spend that money and they’ll spend it in shops they’ll go and spend it in other ways So eventually it goes back into the economy so tax cuts don’t necessarily mean less public money in the greatest scheme of

Things it just means that people get to take more home they have more choice on it I believe in a smaller State and I believe a lower tax but that’s not because I don’t want the state to support people I want people to be able to have the money that they’ve earned

And then choose where they spend it and make sure that we’re supporting the most vulnerable through welfare and other systems in the NHS of course so for me it’s not a it’s not a zero some game we have to make sure with tax CTS we’re giving people the opportunity to keep

Their money but then they’ll be spending it anyway so they’ll be using it in other ways th this time last week your colleague Craig Tracy was sitting in that seat and I asked him to name one public service that had improved since 2010 and he really struggled to answer

The question and that is really I think behind Lily’s question where I’m I don’t want to put words into her mouth but I suspect she sees a lot of Public Services which aren’t working for her and thinks well hang on a minute if more money were invested in them they might

Work better uh rather than put it into tax cuts well my take though is you look at the outcomes crime is down with we’ve got more people in employment we’ve got lower unemployment we’ve got so many things that are going on that actually when you look at the facts and the stats

Are in a better position I get why people feel that things aren’t quite right and you know we’ve come out of a pandemic where we’ve got to sort things out but you look in my constituency in Watford got5 million P to reduce rough sleeping we had no rough Sleepers for a

Period of time I’ve got a brand new hospital coming I’ve got the full funding for that got my tips bille coming making sure that people and workers get to keep their tips there’s so many areas we’ve got a new police station coming got more police all of

These things so actually if you look at the outcomes and the statistics and the data there is more money opportunity there but the truth of it is that we also need to look at efficiencies and the reality is when we look at these systems one of the big bug Bears people

Have is not when they see the doctor or the nurse for example it’s the process of getting there and that’s why she if the Chancellor’s got say 10 billion which it’s rumored to be between 7 and 10 billion we hear from the social care sector that3 and2 billion would actually

Cure their problems and make sure that it was a much safer sector that people getting a better care service I mean is it really possible to argue that that three and a half billion should be spent on tax cuts I think if you look in the round though the money will ultimately

Go back into the system so what we have to do is look at how we spend it and how we do it efficiently how we get to the better outcome so when it comes to social care for example there’s big announcements today I think with council’s getting more support on C come

On to that in a okay great so I think you know it’s it’s not a zero um option here it’s not a case that you do tax cuts and therefore you’re totally cutting services it’s about how does that money get better spent and I believe strongly that people should have

That money in their pockets but we do need tax one one thing if I could just quickly say it used to be that when you went up a higher tax Band it was a moment of Pride you’d got you were getting paid more it was a good thing

Nowadays tax seems to be this very uh negative thing but actually paying more taxes a good thing but we need to make sure that it’s balanced so that people get to keep more because you haven’t increased the threshold um Kirsten I could kind of sense Dean

Coming out of your ears then I I just thought that Dean was perhaps living in a different world a different reality to most of the the people in the country I don’t think that most people would recognize this land of milk and honey which he’s describing people are finding

Things very difficult at the moment they’re having to make extraordinarily hard choices really hard choices ones that I suspect those of us around this table are not having to to contemplate and for you know MPS to sit there and suggest that everything is fine when we

Know that the cost of living crisis is biting a lot of that lies at the the feet of of Dean’s party um we know that brexit has caused huge damage to our economy and to our community and and to our society as well things are very challenging outside of these islands

Things are very challenging for people in their their own homes and government is about choices the choices that this you UK government makes not and and your government in Scotland of course indeed and well let’s let’s look at that so the government in Scotland has chosen to

Invest in making sure that child poverty is kept to the lowest level that can be managed by um introducing the Scottish child payment by increasing that so research by the the Joseph rry foundation and others will absolutely back up that not only has the child poverty rate in Scotland um now been

Significantly lower than across the rest of the UK but that is making a material difference to families and to lives and you know I could go on and talk about the other um benefits that people also talk about the rising tax burden in Scotland where um people are starting to

Move over I mean if you live in southern Scotland you’re starting to move over the border so you pay lower taxes people are not doing that let let me just conclude that why why is it that the the UK government won’t replicate the Scottish child payment what is it that

Isn’t attractive about trying to drive down child poverty that’s the reality of these choices and of course most people in Scotland are absolutely not paying more tax and most people in Scotland are seeing a significant benefit from all of the public services that are available to them whether that’s things like baby

Boxes free prescriptions free tuition fees at University I could go on government is choices and the the choices that this UK government is making are are cynical um as they see that we are moving towards this election okay Craig Swinson yeah I think first of all tax revenues will ultimately go up

With tax cuts you cut the rates more economic growth wages go up it worked for John F Kennedy in the 60s it worked for Reagan in the 80s and Mrs Stater and it worked for even for Trump in his first Administration so reduce the tax burden more collectivism more redistribution doesn’t solve these

Problems the best way to eradicate child poverty which was done quite successfully in 2018 18 1920 is economic growth and wage growth and it just so happens that typically the wages or at least in the last cycle the wages that went up the most were the wages in the very identity groups that

The Democrats in America claimed to be their own and so whether it was racial groups or income groups so the lowest Corti the lowest desile had the highest wage gains the the wealthier desile and cortile had the lowest wage gains below the average so you know these are things

That work so we can tax more and regulate more and redistribute more but collectivism doesn’t work not only is it imoral if you were the chancellor and you had 10 billion pounds at your disposal you would put the whole lot into tax cuts yeah absolutely I mean because that would create more economic

Growth and then the tax cuts pay for themselves so this whole idea the zero sum that that Dean pointed out it doesn’t cost three and a half billion it cost it might cost something in the you know the first quarter of the first year but once you see that the people keep

More their money in their pockets they spend it they hire people because they have more money in their small businesses and then tax revenues ultimately grow first of all people’s incomes grow and that’s the best part but when people’s incomes grow tax revenues go up well if you’re watching

Us live on global player and there was a wide shot there you’d have seen George Momo shaking his head through Greg’s entire answer George it’s all such a historical nonsense I mean when the NHS was built in this country when we built the welfare state in this country the

Top rate of Taxation was 94% that’s why we were able to build these great institutions even though GDP was much much lower than it is today it’s because there was effective redistribution from the very rich into public services and through Public Services the creation of a social safety

Net which prevented the very poor from falling through the cracks now the situation we face in the UK is of a country falling apart the NHS is in permanent crisis schools are literally Al falling down and it’s pretty miraculous that none of them have yet fallen down on the heads of their pupils

That is just a piece of luck so far councils are going bankrupt the rivers are turning into sewers because of a lack of investment in sewage capacity and in water treatment uh sign after sign shows the result of a long-term failure of public investment a failure which admittedly predates this

Administration but has become much worse during this Administration now we Face the extraordinary situation where we see the collapse of public services and record levels of Taxation and we have to ask where’s this money been going sure some of it caused by the pandemic um there have been other factors as well

But a lot of it has frankly been squandered when you look at the VIP Lane for PPE payments going to people like um baroness moan for example and many other favored friends of of the Tory party when you look at the Staggering sums squandered on test and Trace where

Because it was handled in such a fantastically amateur fashion when you look at the basically the patching up of Public Services which very often costs you more than funding them properly it’s failure failure failure what we need to see is the money that is currently being raised spent properly on public services

Rather than the current government do do that formula of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor I mean the government would no doubt say well look we have provided x amount more billions for the Health Service um we give it to NHS England and then suddenly it sort of

Disappears and the doesn’t improve the truth is they haven’t um that um there’s pretty well billion spent service listen there’s an international consensus that for a modern Health Service to be able to keep up with with an aging population and technological change they need 4% a year above inflation currently the NHS

Is receiving 0.5% a year it has A2 200 billion pound deficit in other words the money it would have received since 2010 had it had that 4% funding formula against the money that it actually has received that’s why the NHS is in crisis that’s why people are being treated in

Ambulances because there’s no capacity within the hospitals that’s why A&E departments are falling apart that’s why people are dying of diseases from which they should not die so where where do you spend the 10 billion then well not on tax cuts not on tax cuts I mean it’s

We’re spoiled for choice because there are so many aspects of public provision which desperately need that money you’re absolutely right about that but I wonder from a from a governmental point of view sometimes governments say okay well we’ve got x amount of money to spend

We’re going to spend it all on this to make sure that this can work in a way that it doesn’t at the moment and okay we know that there are other things that it could be spent on but we as a government are choosing to spend it on

This what’s the one thing that you think needs funding most well I think as an environmentalist i’ probably start with the rivers I mean it’s just so disgusting they are flowing with sh1t um I mean hardly a river now interesting you can’t actually say that

Word on this program and yet K sta can say it in prime minister’s questions there’s something wrong there is well I haven’t looked the protocols oh well done um Dean I mean obviously okay Greg agrees you two agree but is it a lonely position arguing this case in your

Constituency not really because when I speak to people that talking about cost of living well what’s the best way of reducing cost of living well it’s making bringing inflation down it’s about having more money in their pockets is about reducing taxes um I get the issues

You know I’m not blind to the the the challenges you know during the pandemic I used to volunteer every week go take shopping to people I saw the I see the challenges and do a lot of work with those uh Charities that help but the

Truth is or if the argument is always we just need more money as Margaret that said eventually you run out of other people’s money and that’s the Socialist argument I think um Ronald Reagan made a brilliant point he was in his uh Speech after his first term and he talked about

It’s not about left or right it’s about up or down and the argument he was making is it’s about creating new opportuni the up is about uh seeing the opportunity creating the opportunity providing people with the ability to afford those those new lives for their kids and that support and the problem is

With the the left argument and the sort of socialist at the extreme is about spending other people’s money in ways that they might not want it to be spent so I think it’s about helping support people it’s about putting the infrastructure in but if the argument is

Constantly put more money in guess what it will get spent and and it won’t necessarily get spent in the best way so it’s about using a business like yeah I I’m struggling with the the notion that the UK government’s actions are about helping people they are assuredly not about helping people we

We’ve only recently heard about their grand plans to make sure that disabled people um must work from home um that’s not helping people who are disabled there are none of these magical jobs I actually looked I can tell you that these jobs don’t exist I was speaking to disability charity today they’re deeply

Anxious that the people who they support are gravely concerned by this it’s a a backdoor way of taking the the support that people have away on this flight of fancy that there are some kind of store cupboard full of work from home jobs for for people who are disabled and who

Actually need that support that they currently have so let’s let’s cut to the chase the UK government is not about supporting people it’s not about looking uh what people need and and providing it in in their time of need it’s very much about looking at the this election

That’s coming up cynically and playing to the the gallery I I think it’s deeply depressing right we’ll move on to other subjects in just a moment here on Cross question on LBC it’s 180 minutes past 8 weekdays from 7:00 a.m. how will people fall in love with the railways if their

Journey is disrupted by industrial action straight to the point people would rather go to the dentist than vote conservative Nick Ferrari at breakfast on LBC these are your candidates who totally disagree with you listen on your radio and Global player the official BC app it’s past 8 George Momio is with us

Kirsten oswood Greg Swenson and Dean Russell let’s go to our next caller it’s khed in Wimbledon khed hi hi in good evening panel um today the uh London B of Behaving announced that it’s technically insolvent and we’d be looking for a government bailout typically known as a section 114 notice

A long list of councils up and down the country of all political Persuasions and now in financial distress um and the government’s obviously just announced an extra 500 million pound which amounts to a couple of million quid per Council across the country do the panel believe that a local government Finance is in

Crisis and do the panel believe that the reason for this crisis is the sticking plaster approach to local government finance and The Chronic underfunding of adult social care provisions and the fact that 13 years of conservative government has failed to address this structural problem of for the underfunding of adult social care which

Is rising year on year and it’s going to get worse as the population ages and more people get dementia and other illnesses okay kard thank you very much I suppose we have to differentiate between councils that have been incredibly badly run and and the more General subject of underfunding um now

Kirst in the break asked you were Scottish council’s in this position and you said well that they’re not why why the difference I mean you know I’m not suggesting that things are not challenging for people who are managing councils and I think that you we would

All agree that they are and you know people are making choices based upon the the funds that they have um you know they have I think been in a different position to the the councils in England over a number of years and you know that means that we’re um in a slightly

Different position now but you know I I would absolutely add my voice to calls for more funding for local government in England because of course that funding then means that that we have additional funding in Scotland and that’s something that we have been calling for the UK government’s funds that are going to

Scotland are smaller in real terms than um we either require and have or have had in the past so you the decisions that are made here have a a very adverse knock on impact on how we do deliver local government in Scotland but I take my hat off to local government

Colleagues who are despite these challenges managing to H do a very good job of of keeping the the the ship of flat and keeping public services and and really important services for people in our local communities um ongoing but the the more that this UK government plays

La fast and and loose with with funding the more challenging that is George M well there are some standout examples of mismanagement some councils have done very badly and they’ve made some really stupid investment decisions but that’s not why the majority of councils are in trouble there’s a long running funding

Crisis here not just the funding from central government but also the profoundly unfair and regressive fact that council tax banding has been stuck since 1991 which means that as time goes on and houses become more valuable the rich pay a smaller and smaller proportion while the poor effectively pay the same

Which actually George Osborne in his podcast this week was saying that he wanted to change this I think in 2015 and introduced two more higher council tax banss but was prevented from doing so by David Cameron who said well that will’ll just be accused of doing a

Mansion tax we don’t do Mansion taxes yeah I mean it’s it’s it’s completely illogical and insane and and and this is the result you know so basically what’s happening and this is happening right across the the the the sphere of Taxation but particularly at the local level that the tax burden gradually gets

Shifted more and more towards the middle and the poor and take and less and less on onto the wealthy and the result is underfunding grotesque underfunding long-term underfunding councils have been in crisis for a long time now what’s different today is that that crisis is coming to a head and I just

Want to say a brilliantly phrased question from khed um really nicely put he’s obviously got his finger on the pulse and he’s raised a crucially important issue Craig well if there’s ever any government that I’d say is government function it should be local government you know I I surely wouldn’t

Advocate more centralized planning more collectivism from the state from Westminster if if local councils have a valid reason that they’re underfunded they can make the case great I mean they if if I were to advocate for any funding of government it would be at the local level where those important services are

Done they should be taxed at the local level as well the the best allocators of capital are not Central planners in London or or Moscow they’re usually at either the private Market the private sector is a much better allocator of capital or for local governments where you need government services where you

Need safety net of course I think that’s that’s a no-brainer reduce the size of the of the central planning and allocate out to the counil at the moment I think it’s 25% of money that Council spend has actually raised locally the the other 75% comes from no wonder govern no

Wonder a lot goes to waste that doesn’t shock me I mean you also need distribution between councils because some councils have got a lot more money floating through them than others and so and so if you have um you know if you just say all the funds got to be raised

Locally that means that rich barers have loads of money to spend and poor barers have almost none Dean yeah well I I used to be a District counselor actually a fair few years ago and so I see the work that counselors do and it’s phenomenal you know many work full-time and are

Counselors as well so I I I take my hat off to them all I think when it comes to funding we need to make sure that it’s spent efficiently it’s focused in on the people who need it the most and and providing uh good Services the the announcement that was mentioned earlier

About um the boost for social care I think is a really positive step and I think that came up in fact in part because a lot of MPS joined their councils as as I did myself and went to government and said look we need to get

This extra support I think when it comes to these things though we need to look at how it’s spent and what the role is of those local government organizations you have in the UK um County councils districts or burough councils you have town councils they all have different

Levels and different roles and I think what we need to do is make sure they’re joined up better and I think there’s a real role there as well for technology I remember years ago seeing how for the planning departments for some hopefully it’s changing now but they’d get an

Email in put it on one system then copy it to another system then send a letter out then send an email out and it was just inefficient and I think we need to look at how that better works but I think there’s a great role for for local

Government and I think it’s an important part of our UK democracy can I just um stand up for the the people who work in local government here and I’m not sure that Dean comments reflect the reality I I think that the the systems in in many local councils are much more modern and

Up to- dat let’s let’s not bash people who probably don’t earn a huge amount of money but are doing important work Fant can can I can I also come in on the social care point just briefly I met with an organization today um and they were telling me about their struggles in

Terms of social care because of brexit and compounded by the ridiculous Visa um Hoops which people have to jump through if we want want to have good social care the first thing we need to do is to have people available to deliver that and as things stand no matter what people in

Government do if there are not staff here to deliver social care then none of these plans will perhap the solution to that is is actually increasing uh wages so that British people might want to do those jobs I I think that the the solution is allowing people who are able

And willing to do these jobs to do them we need and we more well I think if you if you move to Scotland you’ll get proportionately higher wages for these kind of jobs and we we want we need people in Scotland to to to do that kind

Of work and to do other jobs as well so you saying Scotland is paid much more highly than in England I didn’t say it was paid much more anything but we do have a a fair work agenda in Scotland we we do look to organizations paying the

Real living wage these things are really important in recruiting and retaining staff so I I agree with you um on on that particular point but in Scotland we want and we need people to do lots of jobs including social care jobs a lot of these people went home post brexit they

Weren’t welcome here anymore that’s certainly what they felt and people who are now here including people who perhaps have come from Ukraine are being made to to jump through hoops which are profoundly unhelpful to them and to organizations they could be facilitated to do jobs that they want and that we

Need and the UK government makes it very difficult uh we’ve got we’ve got to move on Dean I’m afraid know wanted to come in there uh because we have lots more questions to come it’s 8:31 on LBC news headlines with Charlotte Morgan Downing Street says the government has no

Intention of calling up British conscripts for a possible future war with Russia the head of the army General s Patrick Sanders says citizens should be trained up to boost numbers the chief of West Midland’s fire service Wayne Brown has been found dead at his home it’s understood he was under

Investigation by the service following claims made on on social media and Rising obesity levels among children as a result of the pandemic could end up costing more than 8 billion a new studies found it Rose significantly in England at the height of lockdowns LBC weather rain spreading across Southern

England and Wales tonight reaching Northern Ireland by Dawn clear elsewhere with a low of one this is LBC let me reintroduce my panel Greg Swenson is Chairman of uh Republicans overseas UK Works in investment banking Kirsten oswood is s SMP woman and equality spokesperson in Westminster and MP for

East Ria George momia is a columnist for the guardian and an environmental campaigner and has a brilliant book out which I’ve read and interviewed him about on my all Talk podcast called Regenesis which is a great word I think and it’s a really really thought-provoking book and Dean Russell

Is here conservative MP for Watford uh former business Minister but Dean um you spoke very movingly I thought um was it last week or the week before in the house Commons about a heart attack that you suffered in was it August last year yeah yeah um and I mean you are how old

Are you cuz you’re not 47 47 you’re a lot younger um I mean a it must have been a great shock because you don’t expect to have a heart attack at 47 do you know why you had one and I mean you’ve obviously recovered very well

From it well I think the simple answer to why I had it was because I ate rubbish for many years and didn’t exercise enough and it’s the uh the boring and true answer and um not looking at her absolutely and um and it was a very weird experience you to share

Some of the symptoms for anyone listening you to your fantastic podcast the the truth is I started to get a numbness in my arm it sort went to my chest and then in my upper chest then on my back and over what period of time

Over very short it was over a matter of minutes and but it wasn’t like so you have Cardiac Arrest which is where you you effectively your heart stops but um heart attack it’s much slower so an archery was blocked effectively and um but the care I got was incredible but I

Even though I many years ago I used to work with the British Heart Foundation they were one of my clients and so I did a big campaign with them so I knew instinctively that that was what was a heart attack but even for me perhaps it’s cuz I’m a bloke perhaps because I

Didn’t expect it but I thought oh it can’t be so I left it a little while and then instead of calling 999 I called 111 cuz I thought they’ll tell me to go to the doctors and take some pills and the the when I spoke to them the the words

Came back which was oh uh yeah there’s an ambulance on its way and uh I got took to the hospital then I got moved to hairfield um had three options given to me uh when I got to hairfield I’m sat in the surgery area and they said there’s

Three options one uh you’ll get some tablets we’ll monitor for you for a few days and you might be on something for the rest of your life second you might have to have a stent and they explained it and the third option might be we have

To open up your chest and do open heart surgery and I thought well uh let’s hope it’s number two and thankfully it was I felt like I’d s won the lottery so I feel very lucky it was caught quickly and then spent a few months recovering

During which time I was able to still work you know I was told not to of course and I tried my best not to but within two weeks I was at an event uh walking around meeting people it was scary I have to admit it was searing hot

Day and uh meeting people you was was unusual but I thought at that time I just thought you know what this is what I want to do I I know it sounds cheesy but I I’m an EMP CU I like to make a difference I love people and I thought

At that moment I could either give up and and shy away be scared of my own body or I’ll crack on and and keep delivering and that’s what I’ve done you stopped eating rubbish stopped eating rubbish I’ve lost about I think about 12 kilos and um I still have fishing chips

Every so often or chips with my family but generally it’s just being a bit more careful right let’s go to another caller it’s Francis in South Kensington hello Francis hello good evening hello yeah good evening what would you like to ask what I would like to ask is isn’t it about time the

Conservative party as a party on its last legs just really um in know maybe in a very diplomatic or kind way to Rishi the time has come to hang up the bra and just leave and just just you know Take a Bow graciously only been there about 15

Months yes but the thing is I mean he’s a bright man I mean he would make a very good cab Minister but he’s no prime minister material and I really do feel as a conservative voter I would have rather had someone like KY bog in charge all right can can we have a

Question the question is um don’t you think it’s about time he left okay so about time the men in Gray seits Greg paid a visit to rishy Sun yeah look you can go back to the election and say I would have voted for someone with more powerful conservative

Principles or not but the reality is Le rishy leaving now isn’t going to save the party before the next election like him or not so I I don’t think that’s a wise choice I think you know well well fris thinks K badut would add a bit of

Vim and vigor she probably would but it I don’t think it would work and I don’t think you know I don’t not even sure kmy would want to do that you know there will be a time for leadership change but I don’t think it’s right now because you

Know you’d have to declare an election or or it would be chaos between now and the election in in December so I think it would be a mistake again that’s not a judgment on whether Richi sunak will be looked back on as one of the greatest

Prime Ministers of all time but you know this is this would be rather I think disruptive to say the least chier I don’t think it’s Rich Richi Zak who needs to go I think it’s a whole party I think it’s time huge shock to us

For an election I mean all this all this sort of kafuffle today about you know this article by Simon Clark and you know should he step aside and someone else this is a death rattle of a moraband party this is what happens when it’s completely run out of momentum

Completely run out of ideas completely run out of of moral purpose it’s a bankrupt party it’s a party which is dead in all but name and they will do us a massive favor if they just declare the end of this disastrous episode sooner rather than later I hope you don’t mind

Me asking this but as you know I knew your parents in in Norfolk and they were they were very big conservative party activists your father particularly high in the voluntary party what would they make of the today’s conservative party well it it’s quite interesting actually because to towards the end of of uh

Certainly my father towards the end of his life he became really disillusioned um I think it was when Boris Johnson got in in fact well for a start it was brexit which I was quite surprised that he he came out as a remainer and he

Could just see what a what a mess it was going to be and then when Johnson became prime minister um he he just despaired he thought this isn’t the party that I used to work for and fight for and of course you know we disagreed Lots about

Politics you know we had very different love to have been around old dinner table Yeah well I mean I think in a way I think he was quite happy that you know I’d made my own decisions and and you know and I hadn’t just absorbed what um

The politics that was around me but had thought about it for myself and you know and he wasn’t he wasn’t ashamed that I’d done that in in any way but um um we sort of came a bit closer politically towards the end because we both despaired of the Tory

Party Dean Russell are you going to be a complete loyalist and extol the virtues of Rashi sunak and why he’ll win the next election it’s not about loyal uh loyalty as such it’s that I genuinely think he’s the right person for the right time I think the challenge we’ve

Had as a country requires us to get the economy right and and yeah by chance you could say but and I appreciate you might say well I would say that but you know I I think if you take the corporate world I worked in business uh businesses for

Many years there has always been a case where in the in the kitchen area around the water cool or even in the boardroom there are complaints about the leadership there’s always it’s any business I ask anyone who works in any big company that’s the case the difference in politics those points are

Often made in op heads they’re often made in comments they’re often made interviews on on TV and radio it’s no different we have the same different views within a party but actually I was with pretty much all my colleagues earlier for for something and the feeling in that room was that we felt

United and actually if anything CL there uh I I don’t know I genuinely don’t know actually because I wasn’t looking out for him he’s he’s very tall and I’m very short so I should have probably seen But I genuinely didn’t see uh but but my point though is actually I think in many

Ways what it’s highlighted is that what we’re hearing on the doorstep is that people want to vote conservative but they’ve been frustrated with us and I won’t deny that but they don’t want to vote labor and I think even my my same colleague from the S&P would agree labor

Would be a disaster there’s no plan and I know we say that a lot but there really isn’t and there’s no substance and what we’re getting on with there’s a lot of detail a lot of work that may not always make headlines it may not always

Look like it’s the big uh the big statements but actually we’re getting on with the job and getting inflation down that’s what politicians always t a May used to come out with that one all the time and it used to drive me in say well of course you’re getting with a job it’s

Your job to get on with it is um but that that that doesn’t sort of that doesn’t butter any parast lips at an election of course we expect our politicians to get on with the job and and you’re totally right but it’s it’s coming out of the fact that we’ve had

Two massive shocks to the world you know Ukraine and the pandemic again we all we all know that we can all appreciate that but again for the electorate they they’ve discounted that you can see it in the poll I get that but what I would say so in in a constituency like mine

You know in Watford and I a three-way margin a three-way margin but if you look at what I’ve been able to deliver as a conservative MP over the past four years full funding for a new hospital I’ve got my police things already I’m I just I thought that um had

Inadvertently missed the third shock which was the disastrous mini budget maybe the fourth shock which was brexit he was recovering from heart attack at that point well and you know I’m not blaming Dean personally for for for these things but um it’s definitely the resp responsibility of the the Tor

Government and it’s an absolutely rotten government it’s a zombie government really isn’t it let’s not kid ourselves um they they’re so in mesed and fighting with each other over the you know the the remnants of what was once there and and that’s all at the expense of

Focusing on the things that they ought to be doing and you know providing the support for people in a time that is very difficult you know it’s very difficult out there in the world Beyond these islands there you know serious and significant problems it’s very difficult for people domestically and they’re busy

Fighting about whether they seriously are going to replace yet another um failed T prime minister with someone else well to be fair there’s only two of them that apparently believe they should replace him so it’s not sort of ferit in a sack like it was before I’m not

Confident that they are all enthused um but they have him um and you know this the sooner that we we all have an election so that we can see the the back of this government the better and in Scotland of course the way to make sure that there are no conservative MPS in

Scotland is to vote SMP that’s what the math will tell of course well done for getting that in um right of course in the next 15 minutes we have our fun question which if you were listening last night you may have got a bit of a shock with what one of our panelists

Said let’s see if we can outdo that tonight shall we as’s a challenge to our panel it’s 8:45 this is LBC Kirsten Oswald Greg Swanson and Dean Russell answering your questions here’s a text question from Robert in horam why is Nikki Haley still bothering with her failing campaign now of course the

Former US ambassador to the UN was beaten by around 11% by Donald Trump in yesterday’s New Hampshire Republican primary but said that this race is far from over Trump called her delusional and an impostor in response which is presumably why I appointed her in the first place uh Greg yeah it’s a

Typical Trump banter that’s not new that’s not unusual for him he likes to Iowa he was very sort of inclusive I I noticed that he he actually did a much better job of dialing down after Iowa and trying to encourage people to unify but I think you know he’s got soft skin

So I think what happened is when Nikki Haley said that she was going to stay in the race in spite of losing he was offended by that and so I think you know this it there there wasn’t really a lot of shock when we saw Trump’s comments

The the reality is she might not have a path right now the way you know when you look at things and I think that’s why Ronda santis got out on Sunday night it looks like Trump is going to win the nomination but it’s still very early I mean these things usually happen after

Super Tuesday when you see some you know consolidation around the leader that it’s really early there’s been two primaries the other thing I just have to remind people is that that Trump is almost an incumbent president now granted he got you know 50 or so% in

Iowa and he got um you know pushing slightly more than that in New Hampshire but normally incumbent presidents win 90% of the support in the party they don’t even run contests when when you have an incumbent but now you have two incumbent presidents neither one of which are or called Trump a quasi

Incumbent neither one of them are getting 90% of their own party that’s a bad sign normally that would mean you’re going to fail in the general election but in this case they’re both failing and so n 21% of of uh the surveyed Republicans in New Hampshire last night

Said that they will not vote for Trump in the general election so it means half of Nikki haly’s voters will voted for Nikki but we’ll vote for Trump because you know because they will support the party but 21% say they won’t do that and that number was 15% in Iowa if you’re

Below 90 if you lose in the general but again both candidates are in the same position the best the best chance that Nikki Hal Haley has is just to hang around because you know you can’t predict the unpredictable Trump could you know get into some health problems

He’s 78 years old problems he can he can get a conviction that might change the Dynamics Biden could drop out if Biden drops out you don’t have that Grudge Match you know Revenge Factor that’s motivating so many drop out now it is it is in the process like he couldn’t it’s

Too late to have a proper primary season for the Democrats but he could just drop out and say I’m not not up to it you’re going to have to go to the convention and figure it out so if Biden drops Trump’s numbers go down so so Nikki haly

You know she got nine delegates last night while Trump got 12 you know it wasn’t a complete disaster for her she did better than the polling that um was coming out even in the last few days it was Trump plus 20 the last three polls

Were 22 22 and 27 for Trump and it ended up being 12 um she was also polling at 49 with Independence ahead of trump he was pulling at 41 no shock there she ended up getting 60% of Independence so I’m not suggesting this was a a major

Change and it and it’s going to you know it’s going to encourage her to to stick it out for the entire season and win but she makes some sense by by wishing to stay around just stick brief comments from other three panelists Kirsten I mean it it would be um a positive change

Would it not to be talking more about women um at the the top of their political game in in America Niki Haley is not someone whose politics align with mine at all but it is a refreshing change to be thinking that there are um women interesting there’s a piece in the

Times today about Trump’s possible vice presidential candidates and three of the five they profile were women and you know I can’t fathom how they could see their way to working with um a man who I think has absolutely nothing to recommend him I think he’s a a Despicable um character but that’s

That’s I know that that’s the situation that’s that’s up to them but I I think it is encouraging to see that you know we are talking more about women um and you know frankly talking less about Trump would would only be a good thing from my point of view well it’s hard to

Commentate as a a politician on on um other Count’s politics but I think I’ll give it a try I think it’s dangerous to be fair that a British politician would be so slamming of a potential future president though because I think we’ve gotas well no we’ve got we’ve got to you

Know this special relationship between the UK and between the US I think that’s important that that that sustains and you know that’s important to have a constructive relationship even where there’s disagreements I think as it said you know this is a long way away politics you know a week’s a long time

In politics as they say several months can change everything so I think you know for me I’m watching and waiting and I want to see if there was anything I’d like to see more support from Trump towards Ukraine um I think he will have an important role If he if he does win

Luck in that but I think certainly not going to do that but I think it’s important to to watch and and make sure that whatever happens that we continue to build a good relationship which we’ve got now I think with the us and it got to got to keep growing okay George well

I do hope something changes because it’s a horrifying Prospect this is a man who tried to overturn the result of the last election it’s a man who says he’ll be a dictator on day one man facing 91 charges a man who had a um rape charge upheld by a judge as being substantially

True um he’s possibly the least suitable person in the entire United States to be president again and yet things seem to be lining up such that he’s likely to be gives us something to talk about doesn’t it uh let’s go to another question from uh Bradley in Swindon why oh why are we

Considering drilling for more oil in the North Sea and don’t say energy security please when it’s just going to be sold abroad according to government stats around 80% of the oil produced in the North Sea is actually exported George well why oh why indeed in fact um um the

Government has also conceded that that’s not going to bring down um People’s Energy prices either so it seems almost to be like a a statement of intent that you know we intend to burn this planet we’re going to leave our mark But and that Mark is going to look like a effect

The N zero Net Zero Target by 2050 look look everyone who knows about this this everyone except the climate deniers including the International Energy agency which is no green piece says we have to leave fossil fuels in the ground if we to are to have a chance of avoiding truly dangerous levels of

Climate breakdown that’s the only safe place to leave them in geological strata and the more governments license New fossil fuel extraction as our government is doing and indeed unfortunately Joe Biden’s government is doing as well then the more are chances of remaining within the slightly less dangerous bracket

Diminish and we’re pushing and pushing Earth Systems towards potential collapse Craig well they should have done it a long time ago the world needs fossil fuels and fossil fuels have been liberating people for generations and there’s less poverty and more growth and so many millions of people have isn’t

That a short term to you no not necessarily I mean look it’s it’s unrealistic to think that we can end the use of fossil fuels overnight the the only thing that that’s who’s talking about ending the use of fossil fuels overnight where did that come from well

There need to be you just that’s a total straw man argument you plucked it out of the air nobody is saying we should be ending the use of fossil fuels overnight so we need to we need to provide more fossil fuels at decent prices the more you’re hostile the more hostility to the

Energy sector George the the higher prices go I’m not remotely hostile to the energy sector and I can tell you that Renewables in this country are much much cheaper than fossil fuels if you’re trying to heat your house with fossil fuels you’re spending a fortune doing so

If you’re trying to generate power with fossil fuels you spend a fortune doing so we make it much when there is no wind and there is no sun but that people worked out how to do grid balancing quite a long time ago so you’re saying that fossil fuel should be developed and

Sold around the world but not here in the UK no and say we everyone should developing and selling less fossil fuel that is what the Paris agreement says that is what the great majority of governments have agreed to do that is the only way we’re likely to avoid truly

Dangerous levels of climate breakdown and given that in the UK Renewables and now considerably cheaper than fossil fuels there is absolutely no argument for extracting more without subsidies the wind and solers is cheaper and more efficient yes okay so so let’s ignore the whether we should end the use of

Fossil fuels you’re saying fossil fuels are okay no I’m not saying fossil fuels are okay I’m saying fossil fuels Dev more of that hity should be an example hostility in the to the energy sector that started in 2021 with Biden um entered office all it did was make the

Swing price higher the US had become energy independent and the world’s leading provider of energy just like the UK was energy independent in 2005 but when when the prices go up guess who benefited Venezuela the mullers in Iran and and pu just xenophobic nonsense absolute as I’m enjoying this I have Ane

I have an eye on the clock and we literally have 90 sections for our final two panelists on this Kirsten is gagging well I I hope there’s not been a wide camera angle because I’ve been sitting here with my mouth hanging open um at some of this let’s not engage in climate

Denial let’s be real about the challenges that we Face think Greg was engaging in CL I felt that that was where we were going natural gas Liberation I let you finish can’t wait wait that’s a little bit rude I can’t wait to resp situation that we’re dealing with and that

Exchange is profoundly unhelpful to anyone who’s worried about the climate and it’s also unhelpful to anyone who’s worried about renewable energy I did ask about that in the comments today as it happened and the answer as usual I’m sorry Dean was absolutely nothing there was no answer no answer on why the UK

Government can’t do what the Scottish government’s doing people need that to happen and so does the planet well I I think the uh the strength of this argument and debate tonight has shown why it’s so hard to have a proper debate because people just get shouted down for

Having a view the reality is I think with respect George who was passionate about he didn’t shout down Fair Fair Point okay but but I think the problem is we need a serious debate on these things but the truth is the idea that importing um energy from other places is is better

Somehow and the carbon emissions from that is better than making it at home is for me I find really absurd by example how about leading by example Dean how does that work well I think we are leading by example in so many ways by drilling more oil and gas you think

That’s leading by example I I think we need to make sure that when we’re arguing in the first question about cost of living that we’re making sure that the cost of living is going cost of living your own government says this will not reduce energy prices for

Consumers oh oh how I wish we had done this question earlier in the because I do