Shaun Harvey Interview: Streaming Wrexham Games Now and in the Future

In a fascinating interview with Wrexham Director of Football Shaun Harvey, the executive discusses the crossroads the EFL finds itself in ahead of a new international rights deal. iFollow is ending, so what does the future of streaming EFL games look like for international viewers? Harvey shares his insight regarding the available options and the lessons learned from launching iFollow.

We also discuss how soccer fans in the United States can watch every Wrexham game, why so few Wrexham league games are shown on ESPN+, what changed to normalize streaming of games in the United Kingdom, where Wrexham stands in popularity of EFL clubs worldwide, why iFollow was started in the first place, and much more.

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Well it is a pleasure to have uh with me right now Shan Harvey uh Shan obviously a lot of us know you through welcome to rexim um I know you from the efl and going back to think 2011 with I follow as well as working with leads kind of a

Really proud proud history in terms of uh Executives executive positions um at the different clubs the the first question I have for you too I mean I mean really I mean for a lot of our viewers especially those who are reom fans um we’re gonna talk a lot about

About how to watch rexam matches we’ve been really I mean pleasantly surprised with welcome to rexam season one and season two has been fantastic season 3 is going to be coming out next year but so for those rexon fans who may not know they can stream every single match what

Was your involvement going back to 2011 when you did you were in charge of the efl uh with ifollow I mean h how involved were you in coming up with uh the solution the streaming solution know the world has a funny way doesn’t it of coming coming around and rewarding

You for uh efforts of of of the past so you know so I I created I followup um now we we created we created it for efl clubs who because there was an obvious Gap in the international rights sales whereby the the only games that were ever broadcast live were those games

That had been picked for broadcasting in the UK so domestically and obviously that that same game was then made available to overseas overseas broadcast Partners so and that’s why before 2011 there was very few efl games actually shown in the US and indeed all the way

Around the world and we had a really simple philosophy and that is if you if you are a supporter of a particular team and you have access to what your team play you will do that over and above watching any other club or any other match because you know football as as

You’re learning through the documentary it’s very tribal and you know your team is your team you don’t tend to change it from uh from from CH from childhood all the way all the way through all the way through your life so you know if you so if you

Adopt the principle you would watch your team at any one time the mission that we had at the efl was to give fans that opportunity now of course these were fans who were overseas so you know effectively it was never going to negatively impact on the attendance on the day because you know

An exat who was out in Australia or the US wasn’t coming back for the game so we were able to keep get them back in touch with a football club that that they formed this long-term link and so it was a combination of two things it was a

Combination of financial gain for the clubs and actually to ensure that the efl’s footprint continue to grow out outside the traditional right sales cycle now H how does it feel I mean what does it feel like being on the other side of of of the table because you you

You helped create the if follow now you work you mean very closely with Rex how do it feel on the other side to actually going of be working with ifollow oh it’s brilliant I it’s great because you know there’s actually mean the I follow Arrangement has one year left uh from

The original deal that we that we set up now and you know being able to utilize it and actually see now how it benefits a football club from the football club side is brilliant now we’ve we’ve obviously had the horrible covid pandemic in the middle yeah and you know

That that introduce streaming and non-traditional broadcast to the world in a way that it probably never never never been envisaged and you know it certainly wasn’t envisaged when we created it I’ve explained why we did it but actually what streaming did and actually having a platform like I follow

Was able to do very quickly was a was able not just to take games into the into the living room of fans overseas but actually whilst the covid pandemic was on actually kept domestic supporters into touch with their football club and and in fact that’s what how football generally survived through the covid

Pandemic was on was utilizing this platform so what it actually what the covid pandemic did was actually normalize streaming of games particularly in the UK where that that method of consump sports consumption wasn’t as great so the pandemic created the need and the the need and that need

Has now become an ele element of of the normality so you that’s why I genuinely believe the uptaking streaming has been so great in in recent times and you know why now when people are looking at broadcasting packages generally streaming and accessibility to games and you know the article 48 debate is bound

To continue to run because everybody has been able to sample it but generally you know there’s this it always brings a right smile to my face when you hear of rexon fans all the way around the world now being able to watch every single game every single League game

Live and you know there’s a little part of me that thinks yeah I had something to do with I well I did create that at the outset and now we’re actually benefiting it and we’re probably benefiting from it more than any other club in in the U in the UK I was going

To ask you that too like where does rexam rank in the football league as far as subscriptions uh to so the don’t issue ranking tables okay now the the reality is they don’t issue ranking tables for any number of different reasons um you know it’s not a strictly

It’s not a strict comparison between you know this this is about fan bases overseas so it doesn’t actually necessarily relate to size of clubs and you know if you’ve got a bigger fan base as a League 2 Club than a championship Club you can’t be they’re all grown and

Developed in different ways so so I don’t know that a comparison would be particularly helpful from my experience I genuinely suspect more people are watching rexon overseas on the I follow Network than any other club in the efl wow even more so than like leads United or uh some of the championship clubs

Perhaps well you know there’s two there’s two things that go in Rex’s favor the first one is that we’re able to stream all our games or all our league games which means you know fans can genuinely put you know a bookmark in the in the C in the family calendar that

You know 3 3 pm UK time on Saturday yeah you can watch you can wa you can watch rexon because most of our games are played at 3M and the deal that the AFL has subsequently done for broadcasting rights means that all League one and League 2 games are available

Championship fixtures get displaced mhm from from their normal from from from 3 pm on a Saturday so the appointment of view is a lot more is a lot more difficult to to manage now saying that of course you know if you are a fan of that club you will what you will find

That club’s game but ultimately you know the documentary I genuinely believe has made reom the most popular efl Club internationally now every once in a while uh it’s usually during an international break we will get one or two games from either League one or League 2 on ESPN Plus for streaming uh

Usually you mean it’s you mean obviously the Championships not playing neither as the Premier League um rexam has not been chosen as any of those for ESPN Plus for international uh as of this season other than FA Cup games of course is there does the the clubs have any say in this

Is or is there something like an efl decision where they in okay no I mean it’s strictly an efl and broadcastter decision I mean there is limits you know any one club in League one or League two can only be shown four times in terms of League games that season okay but the

Gen the Gen but the general generally I think I think there’s 20 over the period of the season and no we haven’t been SE we haven’t been selected yet and I don’t think we should read anything into or out of that In fairness it’s probably it’s probably as much that there’s been

Other games that have been as attract more attractive to a domestic audience because that you know we talked ear about what the traditional distribution method was so these are the traditional games that were selected for broadcasting the UK that are then made available to ESPN yeah so you know so

When when you when you look at when you look at the mixture between League one and League two you know whilst rexam has this massive following in the US actually the selections been made to satisfy the requirements of the domestic UK Market okay so that’s that’s the that’s the

Driving influence there’s there’s no doubt in my mind that rexon will featuring one of those slots but it’s probably more likely to be towards the end of the Seas end of the season you know the business end when we when when titles are when titles are being shown

And up up for up are up for grabs okay now I think you mentioned just a couple minutes ago a few minutes ago about I follow it’s it’s going to be basically end of the contract within the next year uh what’s your stance on that is that something you want to see I

Follow continue uh and the reason I asked that too also because I think the the international tender that went out from the efl gives the option as a possibility for a broadcaster to go ahead and take all of the inventory and have that available to stream uh if

There’s an opportunity if it makes business sense where do you stand on the future of I follow so so I mean I follow was created at a particular time for for a specific purpose and what what what I follow has successfully done is is is being able to prove that if you make

Live Match content available fans fans will fans will watch it and it get is it goes back to the principle of watching your team whoever whoever your team is so so it’s not a it’s not a surprise to me that the international rights tender that’s that’s out is offering this opportunity

To replace I follow but it’s only replacing I follow as the efl’s product with an alternative streaming product that may be better placed in the marketplace six years on from when we created I follow so I I I look at it I look at it with an element

Of satisfaction because it means the decision that we made six years ago was is actually right and if this is the next organic step to be able to take it forward that’s not a feeling of I follow It’s actually an acceptance that the concept was right and then now there now

May be a better way of packaging all those games to generate more to generate increased revenue for for the clubs of the of the efl I mean you know people often run a comparison between um I follow and ml the MLB’s prod MLB TV which whatever the

Products called now the MLS product and you know people point to being a lot more individual a lot more subscribers to some of those US based products Well Point number one those us products have been around a lot longer Point number two is that they offer it’s a League wide

Collective subscription so you can watch any any any game you wish these are in the UK version is you you’re actually buying an individual pass to watch your team play yeah so the two are never actually really comparable and shouldn’t be because they’re actually structured for a complete for in a completely

Different way for a completely different purpose because if you had the do if you had the revenue from the rest of the efl sales to the I follow then that’s that’s probably the nearer comparison but of course that that actually takes a wider and deeper understanding of where this

Started from and and ultimately how the broadcast landscape in the UK has traditionally been traditionally been structured so I’m I’m I I’m I’m I’m fascinated to see where this ends up because any as long as games are available easily and at a cost that is manageable for the majority of

Fans then I’m not wedy to I follow as a the only the only route to Market there may be better roots to Market I mean I I personally would love to see reom games free to a in the US every single week and whilst that could have a significant

Financial negative impact onto our our p&l actually as long as it’s readily available and easily accessible we’d probably take our chance that we’d get generate more by creating a bigger fan base than we would from revenue from Individual subscribers so I’m I’m genuinely fascinated to see what the what the

Views of the broad you know the broadcasters and for broadcast the streamers the marketplace is on this par on this particular option I just hope that the process that the efl runs enables those elements to be carved out in such a way as we can identify the value rather than

Being rolled up and packaged together for the you know as as as as one as one deal and I think the you know the efl is certainly a lot wiser today than it was six years ago when we started on this Venture and because by definition it has

To be you know we were we we were working on principles G react good gut feel and a general view that this is something that we needed to do now there’s six years worth of or five years worth of evidence yeah that suggests that this why this why this may work so

I would say I I can only go back to the fact that I’m absolutely fascinated to see the response and if that leads to a move away from I follow to any form of central distribution or even specific Club distribution whether that’s paid for or free to Air I’m I’m genuinely

Comfortable with wherever we end up as long as everybody is able to re to access Rex and games wherever they are in the world yeah it is fascinating I mean to me like I follow as transformative you mean as personal as a fan of Swansea City for my whole entire lifetime

Originally from from South Wales and being able to watch every single home match and away match and when ifollow did launch there were a number of clubs that didn’t go to the ifollow platform they had their own kind of basically internal TV streaming service and and

Many of them have gone to the if follow model because you mean I think it there’s a lot of advantages to it definitely but that’s interesting in terms of uh where this goes because it could go an a a number of different places and like you said too uh

Whichever place it goes is going to be a plus probably some if it is carved out on its own it might be possibly a bigger plus than than uh being as the collective but the collective could be fantastic too I think one of the criticisms that we’ve we’ve heard about

If follow in the past has been that some fans sure they’re a fan of say Leicester city or uh Le United but from in America but they wanted to be able to actually have a past where they could watch all the championship games uh and the same

Would be for League one or League two do you think that’s that could be a possibility where that that opens up an League wide subscription it could it could well be and but it all depends on how does that sit alongside the tradition the traditional distribution um because you know

Ultimately you know every rights holder around the world buys access to the games that are being shown domestically in the U in the UK so there’s you know there’s a significant check that goes alongside that and that’s only additional Revenue to what’s been generated from the UK so the UK Market

Still going to have you know specific premium live games with an element of exclusivity to one broadcaster to drive to drive value yeah so that’s that we are at this really interesting Crossroads because you know does making every game available overseas as a League wide product generate more

For the collective than the individual distribution for a single Club discuss and you know the reality of the situation is we are only going to know the answer to that one probably after the next two or three broadcast Cycles we’re not going to know it this time Al

Because it’s a learning curve all the way through and you know we sat there six years ago and as as you heard me describe it earlier it was a good react it was we knew we needed to do it which makes it easy we knew we have nothing to

Lose that there was no Revenue coming in at this moment in time so we were able to apply first instincts the actual decision’s harder it’s easier and harder in the same breath it’s easier in so much that there’s aen model which means people are interested but it’s harder

Because it’s now more complex and the actual decision making process based on the facts that exist actually makes it a harder decision than we took in the first instance certainly certainly to come out of it with any element of certainty of success because who who knows whether the collective is stronger

Than the individual Parts you know it’s fairly obvious and you know to use a real you to use a you know probably a political comparison rexon would probably make rexon will make more money from sales individually than our friends at aington Stanley right and the question is so aington Stanley

Would probably I would suggest Su suggest that the collect you know that everything should go into the collective pot and be shared that way and you could you know rexen would have a very good reason to argue that it should keep its own individual um individual Revenue I mean

The hybrid is that each Club keeps the revenue that’s generated from its home from the home game right if you’re going to do that you do have to do it as a League wide product because we all know that in that to make a fan subscribe every single

Game to a different a different website to watch the game is G you know that novelty is gonna wear off fairly quickly right and be a bar to subscription so you know and it’s that’s one of the main reasons why the I when I follow was created each Club keeping its

Own Revenue was a we genuinely felt that was the right thing to do to give clubs a vested interest in growing the service you know after all they were their fans and the second one was that if you didn’t do it that way and every home every Club home Club kept its own

Revenue then you you do get to this position where somebody has to subscribe every single week or well every single time you’re playing away from home yeah yeah and that that novelty will soon wear off even even for a lifelong Swansea fan absolutely especially with uh

Streaming the way it is more so in the United States perhaps with there so many different options to see different leagues different competitions Etc it does get pretty confusing which is one of the reasons why wolf soccer talk exists to try to explain it all um the

Last question I have for you Sean is is I know it’s a moving Target because some of these things sometimes take longer or sometimes go a lot faster than than expected but when do you think a decision would be reached in terms of of a bro kind of the next broadcast window

Well so the domestic I mean the domestic the domestic positions result you know is is now is now done you know obviously the packages have been sold to you know to to Sky for the efl you know that that basically means article 48 is going to

Survive inside the U inside the UK right so so that’s the first set of parameters that’s set for the international market you know there’s going to be no Mass broadcast inside the UK so any any any any additional games are going to need their own you know they’re going to need

Their own production which probably goes goes somewhere towards answering or restricting the options but the domestic Market was always gonna come first yeah um so I I I suspect Jan in January or February there will be some significant uh moves I think I think the first thing

The efl have got to decide is whether they’re going to go sell the rights Market by market or whether they’re going to or whether they’re going to sell the rights to an agency for an amount and let the agency deal with take take take the chance take the risk on

Being able to sell the rights on at a you know at at a profit you know and ultimately you know the league has always well has historically for many years taken the guaranteed money from an agency right but this but you know the experience the experience of where of

Where everything of where we’ve where the league has gone that may give it this may provide its opportunity for it to do it itself this time in very much the same way as the Premier League does so there’s some much so there are some you know there’s some real big there’s

Some real big decisions on the horizon but but I suspect to give everybody a fair chance then it it it can’t be certain it certainly won’t be any later than February 2020 before okay well Sean I mean you’re responsible for I follow obviously played a major role with rexim

And continued to do so uh lee 2 to me has been one of the most fascinating uh divisions in in England this this uh season thus far of course the knots counties of the world uh Swindon rexam Etc it’s been fascinating and and uh having you along along for the ride in

Terms of experiencing this all um it’s just and I follow I really think was very transformative in terms of what what it did at that time which was a massive change which was very revolutionary um so so thanks to you for for bringing it to this stage and and

Let’s see where it goes from here yeah and as you well well thank you and you know listen the reom ride is is is great it allows me to utilize 30 years of experience in in club football and competi competitions to try and yeah help Rob and Ryan get to a position

Where they maximize the opportunity that they’ve been able to create in the shortest possible period of time you know because because ultimately you know the the impetus behind rexon will never be greater than it is now and we’ve obviously got what we’ve got to do is to

Elongate and extend that as as long as we can as we can well you know the the extension of it comes down to Robin Ryan remain you know Robin Ryan’s presence you know documentary continuing that’s where the impetus and the acceleration comes from but you know what we’ve got

To do is during that time is to make the maximum you know the maximum opportunity or the maximum benefit from those opportunities that we given and uh you can be you can be assured that everybody at reom will be doing everything we can to ensure that anybody in the US who

Wants to watch reom live has that opportunity both now and in the future F yeah and the best way to do that is go to the rexon website and you’ll find all the information about how to watch those home matches or away matches for any of

Our uh viewers or listeners uh in the United States Sean Harvey go ahead thank you absolutely everything’s everything’s on the website everybody’s welcome you know and the experience of watching reom live you know many many people from many many people from the US have actually

Come over to the uh sto kiras to to actually watch a live game which is a wonderful experience having had the experience of seeing it on seeing it on the documentary you know but the next best thing is is to immerse yourself in the Saturday afternoon experience of

Watching the team of watching of watching the team in live action you know and as you said very helpfully suggested all you know all the D all the all the all the information as to how to sign ups on the website so uh you know please feel free