Question Time | 18th January 2024

Fiona Bruce presents live debate with politicians, commentators and the public, from Peterborough in Cambridgeshire. On the panel, from the government, Bim Afolami MP, who is a Treasury minister; Labour’s shadow attorney general, Emily Thornberry MP; the political editor and presenter at Times Radio, Kate McCann; and the barrister and author Hashi Mohamed. Also live on iPlayer at 8pm.

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With question time tonight how much does illegal migration matter to you the government’s determination to stop the boats has caused serious splits and highlevel resignations within the party is it all worth it to debate that and more we’re in the Cambridge city of Peterborough a place that’s flipped between the two

Main parties for decades our audience here tonight is a broad reflection of the electoral map of the nation they also want to ask should we be scared of a second Trump presidency and in veganuary should we all be giving up meet welcome to question Time on tonight’s panel Ben aalami is economic secretary to the treasury having been handed the role by Rishi sunak late last year a former corporate lawyer he’s been an MP since 2017 and previously worked for Liz trust when she was foreign secretary labor Emily thornber was elected to Parliament 18

Years ago she was Shadow foreign secretary for 4 years before running unsuccessfully party leader in 2020 she is now Shadow to what is effectively the government’s in-house lawyer the Attorney General Kate McAn is a self-styled northerner and political editor at times radio she also presents the station’s Sunday morning program

Before that she had stints in political journalism at talk TV sky and the Daily Telegraph and by his own admission has Muhammad went to some of the worst schools in the country and was raised on state benefits that was after arriving here at the age of n9ine as an

Unaccompanied child Refugee now he’s a successful barister presents radio documentaries and has written two books one about social Mobility the other about housing good evening Welcome to our panelists Welcome to our audience here in petburg great to see you and of course welcome to you at home uh we are

Available as always on BBC I player and on BBC sounds and the conversation no doubt has already got underway on social media so you can join in that too but let’s take our first question tonight which is from Christina Morris hi uh is the government right in continuing to

Push the Rwanda plan is all the money time and res resignations worth the proposed outcomes so the government uh managed to get the safety of Rwanda Bill through the latest stage in the House of Commons but 11 conservatives mp uh MPS rebelled 18 abstained and of course notably the

Former Home Secretary and the former immigration Minister rebelled Bim yeah is it worth it I think it is and the reason why it is is because it’s a key part of our plan not the only part but a key part to tackle illegal migration uh and it’s very very important that people

Appreciate that the Supreme Court a few months ago did strike down elements of the plan we’ve signed a treaty with Rwanda to make sure that we’ve dealt with their criticisms and their concerns and that this plan will work the Attorney General is convinced it will work the prime minister is convinced it

Will work there are many experts that also believe it can work and taken together with the other things we’re doing we’ve done a agreements with France and Albania we’re increasing the National Crime agency’s budget we’re processing over 112,000 Asylum claims this year which is more than any year since

2002 can taken together with all of those things it can make a big dent in our plan to tackle illegal migration and indeed in the last year we’ve brought down illegal Boat Crossings down by a third in the European Union they’ve gone up by a third showing that this is a

Problem that many countries are struggling with and we’ve got the right plan so so you say it will work you’ve got the former Home Secretary well and the former immigration Minister Robert jenrick saying it won’t they’re entitled to their views well you think they might know

But so with the attorney general so with the prime minister so with the current Home Secretary who is foreign secretary as well so look politics is to some degree about competing views and arguments that is part of any political party and indeed any government as you said only 11 conservative MPS rebelled

On this that is you know out of 360 odd MPS that’s quite a small number the party is United behind this plan and hopefully it will get through the House of Lords it’s far more than that submitted amendments as you know Emily I think if anybody was in any doubt that

What limits the number of people coming over in small boats they just need to look at the fact that for 27 days at the end of December into January there weren’t any boats and that’s because not only was it freezing cold but the wind was so strong and only when the wind

Dropped this week did people get into the boats and of course it continued to be cold and we saw a boat go down in fact it didn’t even go down in the middle of the channel it went just a very short distance from the shore you

Could stand on the S Shore and see people drowning and they drowned in water that was freezing cold it was so shallow that some of the boats that was supposed to be rescuing them couldn’t rescue them and what makes me so angry is that whilst all of that is going on

We think of who it is that’s organized these boats and put these people in because quite frankly once they’re in a boat do the do these do these gangs care what happens of course they don’t care they do not care whether they live or die they’re in the boat they’re on their

Way they’ve given them the money and that’s that and what are we doing we’re allowing ourselves to be distracted by a bit of nonsense in Westminster which we know is not going to work it was never going to work and the idea that we have spent 400 million on sending nobody to

Rwanda so that the government can say oh we’re doing something about it and we can just we let’s blame everybody else oh it’s the courts that have stopped us oh it’s the labor party that stopped us oh it’s the House of Lords that stopped us no you have not been smashing the

Gangs which is what you should be doing and that is what you should be focusing on and are we going to just spent a bit of that time and money focused on actually putting a cell into the National Crime agency making sure we got the best people in there we put some

Decent money into it we knew that first and foremost we had to stop the boats going over coming over because of course we should not be having anyone in a small boat risking their life trying to come to the UK so Labor’s policies is in pass as you say to use kiss Alma’s

Phrase which he’s repeated many times to smash the gangs yes what makes you think that you can succeed where any European country with a coastline has failed because what we need to be doing is we need to be putting a great deal more effort into it than we than we do at the

Moment but do you think they’re not what way you can succeed all these other count for example has failed so I think this current government has not I think I mean it’s a the situation in in Italy is going to be different to the situation in Britain we have our

Particular circum IR ances but what we need to do is we need to be putting a lot more effort in than they have been putting in at the moment and it’s as if they already know that they failed do you know what right do you know that

This this oh we’re going to send them off to Rwanda oh it’s going to work do you know that where they were going to send it from was an airport called bosam down right and it isn’t even ready as an airport in fact I asked a question in

Parliament saying has anybody gone from the home office to check to see how they’re doing and in the last year not a single person either a min or an official has gone to bosam down to find out how they’re doing and then on top of that they don’t even have any planes

They are playing with us and they are not focusing on the real issue it’s not right and I’m sure that if you were a minister you would take it if you were a home office Minister you would have taken it seriously and you would at

Least gone to check to see if bosom down was appropriate as an airport and whether it was even going to work but they’re but they’re messing around to the home office has no one gone to check if the plan’s going take off I I do not know

The movements of all my home office colleagues what I do know is that this plan is has been worked on a huge amount of effort has gone into this plan a huge amount of time has gone into this plan in fact the question was almost you know

Is it worth it I’m saying it is worth it not lack of effort is what I’m trying to say let’s hear from lots of hands up yes the man at the back in a black T-shirt I think yeah um so I just want to ask is we spent Millions hundreds of millions

Of pounds on this project even the leader of Rwanda Paul kagame has said well it might not be even worth doing this anymore so what point do we kind of hold up our hands and go this policy hasn’t worked and what point do we kind

Of go yeah we’ve got to H our hands we got to go this cannot work anymore this isn’t economically viable yeah the woman in the blue top yeah I heard recently that there’s only going to be about 500 people a year going to Randa and it’s a reciprocal Arrangement as well so some

Can come back to us now I just can’t see how that’s a good choice of taxpayers money spent okay and the Man in the glass is just a little bit in front of you yeah we’ve um spent a lot of money so far um and we’ve given a lot of money

To France is there not any Merit in trying to put some sort of um situation in France on the coast of France where we can monitor what’s going on then start to prevent some of the boats coming over because everybody says we’re going to stop the uh get the gangs but

We can’t get the gangs because we’re not where the gangs are the gangs are in France working over there can we not have some agreement with France where we can better suit what we’re trying to do there okay the woman here in the green sweater I think so much Focus gets

Spoken about the money that we’re spending on this but actually why the government not learning about the Pacific Solution policy implemented by Australia and actually I think we lose focus on the conditions that those refugees and Asylum Seekers were living in and the government are accepting that

We want people to live in those conditions I think it’s disgusting okay hashy um the the question talked about whether it will work work it won’t say is worth it the is it worth the prop is it worth it we know it’s not worth it you know

It’s not worth it I’m sure Bim really deep down in his heart knows it’s not worth it and yet let’s think about what’s happening right now first things first it’s important to acknowledge that people are really concerned about the boats Crossings and so many people are

Dying and something has to be done I think any rational person agrees on that level two years ago I traveled to Dresden the German Town and I met an irritan man who had been deported from Israel to Rwanda he’d been paid to go to Rwanda Rwanda had a reciprocal

Arrangement with Israel to take refugees when he got there the rwandans said you don’t need to stay there’s the door and he used the money that he was given to make his way back that treacherous journey and he made his way to Dresden where he s sought Asylum

Again the Supreme Court in Israel struck down that law and when we got to our Supreme Court there’s a passage by our learner judges where they said the home office hadn’t even assessed the Israel Rwanda policy before they decided to adopt it so we know it’s not going to work it’s unviable it’s

Expensive and the only person it’s working for is the rwandans because they won’t give us a penny back and what we’re seeing right now instead of them actually dealing with this properly and actually having some real ideas do you know what they’re doing they’re attacking our judges they’re attacking

Our rule of law they are dividing a society they are making us feel like refugees are the scum and who are foreign they refer to the European courts that we are a part of that have United Kingdom judges as foreign courts it’s not only just disgusting as as this

Young lady was saying it’s unconscionable the rhetoric is poison and we have to acknowledge that and absolutely I end where I started which is this is an issue that we need to Grapple with the gentleman talked about the French authorities the French authorities have offered for us to

Station ourselves over there provided we pay imagine how much we could have used for that £400,000 on that side of the channel 400 million I beg your pardon for us to be on that side of the channel to monor it instead this week with everything that’s happening in the world

Everything that’s happening in this country this week our prime minister spent his precious time dealing with the loonies and his parties it’s unconscionable yeah so hash she says very powerfully uh you know it’s not worth it he’s talking about all of you are there any people here who do

Support theyand policy the government clearly feels that it it has popularity yes the man here um we need to have something in place um I’m not sure I agree with every single aspect of the uh Rwanda plan um but at the same time I feel uh a little bit cheated as a

Brexit voter um I wanted us to Take Back Control of our borders uh a laws um but as we’ seen this week you know it’s difficult to even get this passed through our own Parliament not to mention the European laws and and everything else that we we’re we’re tied

Into still you know so I have to say um I’m I’m not too sure but em Emily’s very quick to criticize the plan um but then what’s your plan you know there has to be a plan we’re a small island we haven’t got room for everyone I don’t

Knock anybody that’s wanting to come to the UK for a better life we would all do that if if it was better for us to go somewhere else and some do but at the end of the day there has to be a plan to sort this problem out okay let I’ll come

Back to let me just he a bit more they man there in this blue patent shirt yeah yes what I want to ask well surely the issue is how did the uh people who are catching the boats get to Cal in the first place because they’ve traveled thousands of miles gone through several

European countries to get to Cal shouldn’t what we be looking at is how that can happen and how we could stop it happening and and do you do you support the government in in its do you think it’s a good idea this government the government plan to send people to I

Understand the principles uh that they’re trying to put forward but one I’m not sure that the amount of people that you can send to ruanda under the present Arrangement is enough to deter the boat people um but we do need something in place that is going to

Deter people just flocking to um uh uh Cal to get a boat to come over here when they’re in France they’ve probably come through Spain or they may have come through Italy um you know why why did they go through these countries to get

To Cal and camp out to try and get a boat okay so Kate let me remind you the question is the government right and continue to push the Rwanda plan is it worth all the money the time and the res Nations yeah the question is it worth it

It’s a really interesting one there’s been some Ugo polling done in the last couple of days specifically conservative voters they were asked is it value for money 34% said no 32% said yes should we adapt or scrap the plan 46% said yes only 37% wanted to keep it as it is

Right now so even among conservative voters this Rwanda plan is not doing what it’s supposed to be doing but I think the conversation that we’re having here today opens up some much bigger questions about what kind of country we want to be but also about legal migration we’re talking here about

Illegal migration about people crossing the channel the gentleman there said I voted for brexit I wanted to take back control of the borders but taking back control means really different things to different people particularly in this context around immigration and when you start getting into the moral argument

And how you feel about something like this kind of policy it gets very difficult I think that politics has failed to be able to debate and talk about this in a way that is helpful for policy and I think there are a number of reasons for that I think we’ve had a

Couple of big votes in the last couple of years that people wanted change 2016 2019 and that people feel that they didn’t get it but I think on the specifics of the Rwanda policy you’ve got a prime minister who’s very good at the detail he can give you lots of

Statistics but he hasn’t so far in the view of many people made the argument for this policy he hasn’t hasn’t taken some of the arguments against it and really tried to explain why this is the right way forward I think he I I think he’s lost heart in this policy if I’m

Honest he never believed in it and I think the problem for the conservative party that flows from this is that what you can see now is the Tory party is losing heart too and I think that that becomes very difficult to turn around Bim are you losing heart is the Primus

Losing heart is this a poison poisonous debate as as hash is saying well look I’ll take the losing heart and then I’ll I’ll come on to Ash’s comments look as I said in my remarks this is a key part of the policy but it is not the only thing

We are doing and frankly my frustration with how this whole issue has been debated is that it’s almost been so emphasized that we haven’t been able to explain the agreement we’ve made with Albania where the number of removals to Albania is now know the number of people coming from Albania in illegal migration

Is down by 93% we haven’t been governments talked about that quite a lot okay fine we haven’t been able to talk about Emily mentioned the National Crime agency we’ve doubled the number of people looking at this trying to deal with this problem the National Crime agency and there are all sorts of other

Things we are doing yes we’ve had to have a big vote in Parliament yes it was difficult to get through Parliament as the gentleman said earlier but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t going to have an impact particularly in terms of the deterrent effect which I believe will

Happen now do I think that this one thing will mean that there will be absolutely nobody crossing the channel I think that that’s difficult isn’t that the point it’s called it’s about stopping the but what we’re trying to do is to reduce the number significantly

We’ve already done it hang hang on a bit In fairness when the Prime Minister stands up at his Podium as he did this morning what it says is stop the boats not stop almost all the boats okay look look um what I’m trying to say if we’re

Talking about this Randa Bill if this is a key part of what we’re doing we are going this is going to make significant difference but it is not the only thing we are doing there are other building blocks to this plan so my point is that

Rwanda the Rwanda issue does not in and of itself fix the problem all the other things we are doing and we’ll continue to do and hopefully we’ll double our efforts on all of those things taken together will make a significant impact in dealing with this problem and I think

That the gentleman earlier on talking about um Emily’s comments I think he made a very fair point well let’s let Emily we have a clear plan there are several things we are doing and the labor party just criticizes without okay well let’s Let Em answer that and reasy

Brief if you would but the man here saying you know you’ve got to have yeah so we need so first of all we need to crush the gangs and therefore of course we need to not only improve what we’re doing prosecutions of these gangs in

Britain has gone down by a third uh we need to also work internationally of course we do and we need to be able to work in a against a background of trust and make sure that we’re exchanging information and work together and have projects together in order to be able to

Crush the gangs and of course the further back Upstream that we can stop people the better for everyone’s sake you know so we need to be able to do that we need to be able to have a proper returns policy yes we’ve now got an agreement with Albania but we need to be

Able to have a functioning Asylum system which means that we don’t have a backlog of a 100,000 people we are not spending 8 million pound a day keeping people in hotels you know they have they designated 5,000 people who were supposed to be designated as people who

Might go to Rwanda and they have lost 4,250 of them we need to have an asylum policy that people have faith in that works properly so as frankly it did under the last Labor government hello we didn’t have these sorts of problems then because we had a proper returns policy

We had a policy that was firm and fair and fast and it has fallen to pieces under this government and all they’re trying to do is is is distract people by this gimmick of a of ruenda right I think we’ll probably be coming back to this subject over the next few months so

I’m going to end it there for now I just want to let you know at home uh where we’re going to be next week which is Gillingham in Kent and the following we are in Glasgow so if you’d like to come to either the Gillingham program or the

Glasgow program go to The Question Time website uh details are here and you can follow all the instructions and who knows you could be sitting here instead of watching it on the sofa at home anyway right let’s take our next question now which is from Marian

Durose I am truly scared of what a second Trump presidency May mean for international relations the planet we call home and Society at large are you well uh Donald Trump uh as I’m sure you’re all aware won the Republican nomination in Iowa he’s got many more

Stages to go through but he won the first one this week by some considerable margin and he’s also doing very well in the polls Emily should we be scared are you scared I think we have to face facts that he might end up getting reelected

And I think we need to be ready I have always had a bit more of Angela Merkel in me when it comes to my attitude to Donald Trump than perhaps Theresa May um and I think that what you have to do meaning what exactly meaning that you

Shouldn’t count out to him meaning that the only thing that he respects is people standing up to him and showing a bit of strength I think that you must not let him push you around and you have to be clear about what it is that you

Think so you called him in the past a racist and sexual predator destroying the world order do you mean to say that to his face I mean you know labor wants to be in government if you are in government are these the kind of comments you’re

Going to make to his face I think you have to be a you have to work with him and you have to say no to him and you have to say that’s not right this that is dangerous we are we are friends to America and you are doing the wrong

Thing and we want to be able to work with you but you can’t do this I mean that’s what you need to do that’s how friends need to be able to speak to one another and if he gets elected he gets elected and we we know we work with him

Because we have to but we have to be truthful and we have to be strong Ben are you scared no I’m not scared but I I think one has to be wary and I think that what one has to be able to do is I

Agree with Emily in terms of we have to work with whoever and not just in America all sorts of countries have leaders that we may you know find unsavory but as a government you have to be able to in the interest of the British people work with absolutely

Everybody but at the same time we’ve got to make sure that we can separate out the person who happens for four years to be the head of state and all of our deep cooperation and friendship with the institutions of the United States which we should have faith in we should have

Confidence in their military their uh um intelligence agencies all the cooperation that happens between our two two countries I do have faith in those things not withstanding even if Donald Trump is elected so you’re effectively saying as as Emily is should you be should the conservatives be in in

Government should labor be in government we have to work with him of course David Cameron has described his behavior as protectionist xenophobic and misogynistic you have described him as a cancer at the heart of us politics now he doesn’t strike I know Donald Trump but he doesn’t strike me as a man who

Takes insults well how is that going to work actually if you look say sorry if you look well no no no I don’t I I I don’t I don’t need to say sorry um uh you stand by that what I would say the that the possible future president of

The United States is a cancer at the heart of us politics what what I would say is Donald Trump himself in the primary process that he’s going through and has been through in the past has said all sorts of things about all sorts of other people some of whom then later

Served in his cabinet and in his government so you me oh Donald didn’t really mean it is that what is that what what no what I’m saying is in politics people you have views but you still have to be able to work with people and I’m afraid that that is just

You know how it goes if you’re in government interesting okay women there in the classes I agree with you Emil I think you know the best thing to do is to stand up to you know people that are bullies that intimidate people through power but let’s face it this is not love

Actually have really got a prime minister in cabinet right now who is willing and capable to stand up to Donald Trump no but we will hopefully man here I think one of the things I’m most concerned about is the post truth element that also comes with Trump as

Well I mean we’ve already without wanting to Har back we’ve already got a government that’s legislating reality with the with with the Rwanda bill um what I’d like to hear from the panel was what they would do in this new kind of posttruth world we’ve got coming to try

And stop to try and stop that wave that’s coming okay let me have the woman in glasses there Emily um can you be honest in saying that you think K St will be able to handle Donald Trump if you don’t think Rich sunak will be able

To yeah how because I because my I’ve known I’ve known Kier for decades I’ve known Kier for more than 30 years and I know him to be a truthful upstanding and strong individual and I think if anybody would you know and and who wants to put

The country first and so I think that he is exactly the person we need to have as prime minister if we were to have Donald Trump as president so Kate Marian’s question is it lists the various things she’s scared of about the Trump presidency for international relations

The planet Society at large now clear we’ve got a a war in Ukraine at the moment Donald Trump has said he’ll end that in a day um he’s made another he’s talked about drill baby drill from day one that whether that means oil or more fracking is is not

Clear what’s your view in terms of you know what you think Trump might do and how we should respond to it yeah there are some people who are very deeply worried about what Donald Trump would be like if he got back in again a second time around there are experts who say

That he felt the first time he was too willing to go along with the views of the people around him he almost tempered some of the things that he wanted to do and that if he did win a second term that he wouldn’t do that he would do

What he wants to do go with his gut surround himself with people who are very similar to himself which I think is why people are feeling the way they feel about you know the concerns and it’s worth adding that b the end of your quote about the cancer at the heart of

Us Poli did I miss an even better bit no it it just relates quite well to to what people are saying you said it’s so sad to see the impact on their democracy I hope it can be repaired now I think tell him that bit I think it goes to the

Heart follow up with that bit you’ll be fine bestes it goes to the heart of what you’re saying though which is about how politics works at the moment and I do think we need to be honest about about how big a problem we have there I think

We do have a problem I think politicians like Donald Trump are the arsonist and the fireman they will light the fire shout about the problem and promise they can put it out and they’ll put it out quickly for you because they’ve got the best way the reality is these problems

That we’re talking about are so so difficult to solve and the honest truth is it’s not sexy it’s not quick there is no quick fix for a lot of this stuff and unfortunately that is the answer that politicians need to be honest with people and they need to front up and say

You know it may well take us some time we can’t do it quickly it may not be what you want to hear I think if we don’t do that we get into a really difficult vicious cycle where you don’t get the Quick Fix and actually what Donald Trump does and what David Cameron

Said today about immigration policy and the conversation around it is that it undermines people’s trust in politics because they don’t see what they want delivered and they don’t trust politicians and they don’t vote and I think that leaves us in a much worse place so hashy what a second Trump presidency

What is that something you would welcome I’m suspecting not from from what you’ve said so far where do you think the main issues would be for us yeah I think um for me I’m a I’m a huge fan of um the United States as a as a country and its

Institutions I particularly obviously uh admire the the Judiciary in many respects and should I be scared I’m not necessarily scared because there’s a part of me that’s thinking how much worse can things actually get but I am so concerned one primary reason being that we have a very thin skinned man

Who’s got a lot of scores to settle and when he left office the riot in the Capitol Hill that he had inspired had severely damaged American democracy and everything that it stood for and with every court case that comes forward that is trying to hold him to

Account it would seem it only increases his popularity and at the end of the day democracy is one man one vote the other day he said in Iowa make sure you turn up even if you’re ill just make sure you turn up and vote and then you can

Die that’s the kind of mentality this man has for my part it will be such a damning result for the United States of America for him to be standing there being sworn back again literally meters away from where the Insurrection took place and that will be a devastating

Image for Modern democracy in terms of what it means for us as a country as I agree with what Bim said whether it’s our security services the five eyes and the sort of civil service cooperation that we see on that front I’m confident that that won’t be affected because in

That part of of of of our institutions there are actually uh adults in the room but in a bigger context the last thing I would add is this think about when he comes into Power Israel Palestine Iran Pakistan Ukraine his own border issues deeply divided country and he’s

Got that on his plate it’s that is deeply concerning can I ask I mean I’m going to I’m going to do this in the interest of balance Trump has a lot of support in America has he got any support here in the audience would anyone welcome a trump

Presidency yes you sir yeah I I don’t say I’m a trump fan but I’ve got American family and used to work for us company and know a lot of people in the US we’re being quite disrespectful as a comp country actually the way we’re talking about him and actually say

Getting him who what he’s done for their country a number of the people in the US say he gets things done and it’s a Pity we don’t have some politicians to do that but the only way to work with him is not to have some of the rhetoric I’ve

Heard on the panel so far you’ve got to deal with him and as much as I respect what Emily has said is I don’t think some of the the words that are used him are going to be useful to us at all we have to deal with him

Figure out a way of dealing with him and you have to curtail some of your feelings because if not you’re going to be disrespectful both to a head of state and the American people who we’re supposed to be almost Brethren with okay right I hear what you have to say um I’m

Going to move on and take another question um from Valerie reesi um with NHS waiting list at the highest level since records began should we all copy the RO family and HT for Private health care right so um news today you’ll be aware of course that the

Princess of Wales is being treated in hospital in a private hospital and the King will also be treated in a private hospital and of course we wish them uh both well uh in their health um I mean you’re making a serious Point here Valerie which is is with waiting list

You know what what else are people supposed to do I think that’s the point you’re making Val is it Kate this is a really I think it’s a really difficult question for any party to answer there are there are more staff and more funding in the NHS now than

There was pre- pandemic which people might find quite hard to believe but that is true those are Institute for fiscal studies statistics and yet more people are waiting longer far far far longer so I think what the NHS procedur are few procedures are taking place so what the NHS has is a productivity

Problem and and a very very bad one right it goes It goes to that point about it being a very long-term problem but what you’ve got to do is find a way to solve that I think the difficulty for particularly an incoming labor government with the NHS and with this

With this NHS problem is that people expect labor to be able to do something to solve it and I I know obviously you’re in government right now and the Tories have potentially you know a policy there but with labor I think people expect more and there is not very

Much room for labor to do very much on this issue because the money isn’t there and changing productivity levels in the NHS requires investment in technology it requires a new strategy it requires staff working with all of those things and there’s a big problem with staff

Morale so I think the answer is a very very difficult one and it’s not a quick fix and the concern is if if no politician can solve it more and more people will look to the private sector uh and indeed they are um at the beginning of 2023 uh the number of

Hospital admissions paid for with private medical insurance was the was the highest on record ashy I think um the NHS is one of those really difficult conversations because I think it’s almost like a religious institution in this country and I’m a big believer in the

NHS I use the NHS I can afford to go private but I use the NHS but the the truth is that we have not been putting enough money in in one sense when we compare ourselves to the European continent and yet the money that we are putting in it would seem

We’re not getting what we deserve to get out of it and so what I find really difficult about the NHS not even talking about whether we should be looking at privatization or anything like that at all what I find really difficult is it is an issue that we are incapable

Somehow of having a rational debate about what it means in an aging population what it means in a way that the NHS is effectively a crutch for social care what it means for the issues around Staffing levels the fact that we have to recruit so much from abroad the

Fact that we are not investing in the right Technologies at the right time procurement all of the other things and let’s be frank the NHS has been starved by the Tories too for a significant period of time if you look at the investment and the ways in which the

Waiting lists have gone up it correlates with the period in time that Tories have been in power but the pandemic has exacerbated the situation as well so in my heart for me the NHS is one of those pillars of our institutions in this country but sooner or later we have to

Confront that it’s currently not working as it should be and we have to do something serious and we’re all relying on your colleague West Street and uh Emily and your and the labor government as the founding sort of fathers of the National Health Service to really fundamentally transform it so good luck

Okay I’ll come to you Emily man there in the black T-shirt um I suppose my question would be um for a labor or a conservative government um to alleviate the backlogs of the NHS weight list would um private healthcare vouchers be uh an Avenue that you might go down to try and alleviate

Like I said the back backlogs that they’ve got until they are CID and then people can go back to using the NHS as it normally should be I mean private hospitals are sometimes used but you can sometimes NHS patients are referred to private hospitals to to alleviate the

Backlog but you mean something on top of that yes okay let’s come back there’s a woman in a red top I think I can just about see you yeah yeah it’s it’s not just about privatized uh priv going to private hospitals in Peterboro you’re not going going to get to see an NHS

Dentist the nearest one that will take an adult who’s not on benefit is in ketering over 25 miles away so hang on hang on let’s just explore that a bit further so if you live in peterb y and you’re not on benefits yeah and you want

To get an NHS dentist you have to go 25 miles you would have to I was I was deregistered because the dentist I was with NHS dentist um canceled my appoint my regular appointment during covid and then said because she haven’t been you’re deregistered I can’t find another

NHS dentist anywhere except the nearest is ketering wow okay let me take one more Point here yes the man there here on the on the end productivity I think is one of the key things to not just in the NHS but in many government areas uh the immigration

Process to me just seems to take so long why does it need to take so long the NHS I’m sure is a cultural issue issue uh significantly cultural uh in terms of kind of their hearts and minds and getting Pro productivity up but I do believe in the same way as the

Government has had the political will to sort out the post office Scandal they can sort out the co inquiry they can sort out the NHS and they can sort out the imig immigration process in a much faster and more effective way to the taxpayer okay and let me just hear from

This man in the glasses the NHS is on its knees we’re willing to spend 400 million and just it it might be a dead duck on the Randa plan you’re talking about all right Ben so so the question is I mean not that you are suggesting

That we should all go private but you’re making the point you know should we all be opting for private healthcare because NHS waiting list are at the highest level since records began and you were making the point about private healthcare VES well first of all no nobody should have to go private and

Just to take you know some of the issues that we’ve heard so far we’ve heard about funding since the beginning of this Parliament and obviously covid is you know the big health issue of this Parliament so far funding’s gone up by about a third on the NHS right by about

A third that’s a lot and we were spending a lot on it before the point made about productivity I think is a very fair one and my treasury colleague Laura Trot is working on a productivity review not just on the NHS but on all government departments that is a key

Part of it because as a percentage of everything the government spends they s is about 42 43% it’s a huge amount of all the money government spends and so that productivity R you is looking very seriously at this issue and I think it’s a fair point you know well made we’ve

We’ve heard about Staffing and again as as Kate mccan said there are now more staff whether it be doctors nurses all sorts of other medical staff in the NHS um than there was before but it’s not enough as you know something like like there are something like one in 10

Vacancies no look I’m not saying that all the problems are solved I’m just making the point that we are making progress but there is something that has particularly undermined on the issue of waiting list this year um sorry over the last year and that is the strikes that’s

That’s not fair hold on Junior doctor’s strikes have had a huge impact on waiting list they have but waiting list were growing before the got stri well because actually we were starting to bring them down so if you look at November 2020 I think it was November

2023 the last month where there wasn’t any where there weren’t any strikes the waiting list went down by almost 100,000 just the fact that the junior doctors weren’t at strike you know we’ve settled as a government we settled with Consultants nurses all sorts of other medical staff the junior doctors have

Got to a place where they’re demanding 35% increase these are people who are well above average wages 35% increase which I think and the government thinks is unreasonable they should come to the table and stop these strikes which are having a huge negative impact on waiting

List and on the lives of my consti and indeed on everybody in this country Emily the NHS is so broken and after 14 years who broke it who broke it you know this government has failed we need a change we need a change of government

And we need a bit of Hope for the NHS you know when we left government the NHS wasn’t even an issue it wasn’t even didn’t even appear in any elections nobody thought about it because it had been sorted and now look what they’ve done to it look how bad it

Is you know look at the demoralized and exhausted Workforce look at the fact that they have done nothing about social care they have not adapted at all it’s all very well them trying to blame the staff and saying that they it’s their fault because they’re on strike or if it

Isn’t the staff’s fault then it’s CO’s fault the waiting lists were going up and up before Co even struck and what about long should labor get into government I mean West treating has has talked a lot about a number number of plans yes where’s where’s the money

Going to come from what we have done is we’ve talked particularly about particular issues so we have a pot of money that we’ve talked about that we’re going to use in order to pay the staff more to work longer hours I know but to put their put their backs in and to help

You know fight back on terms of the waiting list so we’ve we’ we’ve announced that we’ve announced that we’re going to introduce more NHS dentists I’ve spoken to people in Peterborough who have had difficulties getting hold of an NHS dentist and it isn’t just Peterborough that has this

Problem up and down the country people are having real problems finding NHS dentist to get onto the waiting list what about things like new so so for example people who are trying to get who are taking uh using Private health insurance are primarily or mostly using it for Diagnostics you know kosc end

Endoscopies that kind of thing the NHS talks about how they don’t have enough scanners they don’t have enough people to to to monitor what the scanners the results of the scanners come out with where’s the money going to come from technology for example so so obviously

The number of people who go for private healthcare goes up the longer you have a Tory government sure where’s the money going to come from for the technology so we’ve got an NHS that still sends letters not emails so so where’s where’s the money going to come real so many of

The things that Wes has talked about is he’s talked about the need to put more investment into the NHS but also to be able to change some of the processes which will include you know much more work in terms of digital so that we don’t have I mean we all had we’ve all

Had a letter that’s arrived after our that will cost money that’s the point I’m trying to make of and so so that’s so that’s why what we’re doing is we’re being really straightforward with people and saying we cannot fix the NHS that they took 15

Years to break in a in one term you know we will need to have more than one term in order to be able to really turn the NHS round because it is linked completely with what we want to be able to do with the economy you know we have

Had no growth in our economy during the entire time practically that this this lot had been in we need to make sure that we turn our economy around we have a green Prosperity plan and we need to be able to invest we need to be able to

Turn the economy around and only then will we be able to put the sort of investment that our Public Services needs into our public services and yes it will it won’t you know if we were to be given the great honor of serving this country it’s not going to be fixed in a

Year we are going to need some time but we will go in the right direction and we will listen K you want you to come back in yeah it’s just to say that you know for labor this is a real point of danger because exactly that argument is what labor is

Going to be making we need two terms to make this happen but you know people are going to be expecting change quite quickly I think particularly from a labor government and Emily you mentioned social care there I mean what is Labor’s plan for social care are you going to

Fundamentally reform the system of social care in this country when we were elected in 97 you know the only thing that we pledged at that point was that we would cut the waiting list by a 100,000 and then after we have been in government for three terms look at the

Way in which we transfer the transform how is that answering Kate’s question sorry so what it what I’m saying is that it takes time to be able what’s your plan for social that’s what you’re asking what’s your plan for so we have a plan at the moment to work with the

Workforce in order to ensure that they’re properly valued and that is a really and that means they’re making sure that they are not underpaid and they’re being paid properly and so that will we hope help to attract more people to be able to come in and work in Social

Care because one of the problems is is that we don’t have enough people working in the sector and we slowly build on that but we need to turn the Tank tank around and it will take time I’m not we were talking earlier about the importance of Truth this is truth woman

Here in the front so I’ve recently moved to Peterborough and so my question to the conservative party is what do we do regarding the dentist what advice would you give to me having recently moved and not been able to find an NHS dentist in peterb what advice would you

Give in relation to that particular point I don’t know the availability of NHS dentist precisely in petburg what I do we’re hearing from the people who live here is I don’t I can’t I can’t advise on exactly the details of piz but what I do know more generally is that we

Are increasing the funding we are making it easier for more D for more dentists to take on NHS patients it’s going to take some time to work some of this out part of the impact on this was the result of covid where a lot of things

Were untreated for a very long time and then the backlogs were difficult and some dentist and some dentist then stop taking and the lady who mentioned earlier that she was sort of deregistered I think that was wrong and it doesn’t strike me as as in any way

Legitimate to do that but more broadly we are trying to now encourage and incentivize more dentists to take NHS patients I can’t speak for Petra precisely but I know that that’s something that work I suppose the answer is maybe think about going private that’s what he’s saying really lab or vote labor

May okay there’s lots of you’ve got your hands up so I’m just woman here in the orange shirt yeah I live in petan I was also deregistered during covid for the dentist so I’ve now had to pay and go private but also I think the NHS is

Broken in peterb you struggled to get a doctor’s appointment and recently I’ve had two occasions when I’ve got through to the doctors and been told that NHS service is no longer available you have to pay for that treatment and that’s happened twice in the last 6 months where those two

Treatments um before covid were available and funded by the NHS and now they are no longer and now they’re no longer can I just I just I’m just intrigued by this Dentistry is anyone else got experience of trying to get a dentist here oh my gosh BL here Riley

Okay uh big issue right well Valerie you put your hand out and you asked a question so what’s what’s your experience in t trying to get D the same I’ve got to go I’ve got dentist which is about 40 50 40 mil from where I live and

And why are you going so far because you can’t get because I cannot get an and we leave 50 miles up north from P so North Lincoln sh you just can’t get one there’s no NHS dentist so Bim look you’ve the conserv has been for what 14

Years 13 14 years this is now the 14th year and you got people here and and a Forest of Hands which I want to ask about it saying they cannot get an NHS dentist what do you say to them what I say is as I have said is I know there

Are problems and we are working on them but you’ve been for 14 years You’ got people who cannot get an NHS dentist sorry I sorry I think is what you meant to say sorry I’m I’m just thinking what you should be saying no let’s let let’s let

B what what I’m saying is the impact of covid on our system was significant it’s not just in this country it happened in other countries as well NHS Dentistry is a big part of that and now we have got the economy turning the corner that means we’ve now going to

Be able to continue to increase the funding where it’s necessary but I’m not pretending that it’s easy but what I’d also say to you is you’ve got to beware of when labor or anybody else says don’t worry trust us give us 10 years in power and we will fix it they’re not willing

To explain the plan they’re not really willing to explain how they’re going to fund it Emily mentioned the green Prosperity plan which cost 28 billion pounds fine that’s reasonable but you they haven’t been able to explain how they’re going to pay for it and 28 billion pounds

Is roughly about six uh five five to six% extra on income tax now it’s reasonable if labor say right we’re going to raise your income tax by 5% and we’re going to spend that 28 billion pounds if that’s so they need to be honest about that talking about truth

Emily be honest about that 28 billion where are you going to get the money from how much more are you going to increase people’s taxes in order to pay so what we’re going to do is we’re going to build up to 28 billion p a year we’re

Going to do it during the second part of the first 5year term that hopefully will be the first and what we will do is we will borrow it and we will borrow it on for every pound that we spend we will be expecting £3 to come in from the private

Sector because what we will be doing is we will be Transforming Our Energy System so that your bills will go down forever because we will be making sure that we have we will have the sort of renewable energy that frankly our country really ought to be world leaders

In and we have been held back you know do you know that that Ukraine right has had has built more on onshore wind farms since the war than we’ve been able to build at all in this in this country it takes 14 years to put up a a wind

Turbine at the moment we will transform this and it will change our economy for the better and we will be investing that money we will show clear leadership and the private sector will know that for example we’re rewiring the country you know the amount of money that’s being

Held back because they people either can’t put their energy onto the Grid or can’t get money off the grid to set up a new Factory because because our our our wiring at as a country itself is completely let me exhausted needs renewing when Emily said we’re going to

Borrow the money there was a quite a sizable Ripple of laughter through the audience and I’m just so who who was laughing there I just want to hear why you are so you for example here in the in the front hang on let’s get microphone too there you go

And borrowing more aren we already in enough debt but in order to be able to grow the economy we have to put the injection of of money into it in order to invest I mean just like people borrow to to buy a house you know we need to borrow to

Invest we are being really careful about making sure that the the promises we make all of the promises that we make we’re saying are costed but we are also being completely clear that we will build up to borrowing 28 billion a year in order to be able to invest it in

Order to be able to transform our economy it’ll be worth it you know because we will get the growth in our economy from so you borrow on International markets and it will be and we will I mean we will be doing other things in order to ensure that we grow

Our economy we’re going to be changing the planning system and we’re going to be building 1.5 million homes that will take people off waiting list and will help them to be youngsters to be able to have their own places I mean I’m just going to jump in only

Because fine these are questions you were asked a to we’ve got 5 minutes left and I just want to squeeze in one final question and maybe change the mood a bit I don’t know um James Hutchings yeah um so my question is am I evil for wanting meat to stay on my

Menu right well we are in veganuary uh still just and I’m assuming that one of the reasons this has come up is it was in the news this week that a college an agricultural College in Yorkshire um said it would remove meat to two days a week from one of its

Restaurants for January for veganuary and then there’s a bit of a hoar about that being in agricultural college and also it has reversed its decision says it recognizes the role that livestock and crops play um Kate as a not much meat eater am I in am I on

The moral does that mean veget but for the oldd bacon sandwich basically yeah I thought it might okay um I feel like I’m exempt from this question uh no look no come on no one’s exempt on this P it’s a really interesting one isn’t it this this moral question about what we eat

What we don’t eat you know what we do and what we don’t do I also a climate question it’s a climate I don’t think you’re evil no um personally but it it it’s a debate that we’re going to have to have a lot more the level you think

We should be eating less meat well the levels of methane is the thing that really shocked me the amount of methane that is is released in the production of meat is what’s really wor worrying climate scientists but did you know that some chocolate bars release the same

Amount of methane because of the way that the cocoa is farmed so if you’re worrying about meat maybe we should be worrying about chocolate as well oh no oh come on come on um cashy I definitely want to come to your parties um uh um look I think we should

Definitely eat less meat not least because it’s good for your health uh not to eat so much but no I don’t think you’re evil for wanting uh uh good meat I I like a good steak um but I just think for the environment for your own

Health for the NHS it would help if we ate a little bit less meat in order to ensure that we were saving the planet so no um you’d enjoy it more when you eat a bit less of it too so Bim you’ve got the world um Wildlife Foundation saying beef

Production is the top driver of deforestation in the world’s tropical forest there are some that argue you know rather than raise use land to raise cattle raise sheep actually if we used that to to plant crops we could feed the world more cheaply and more beneficially I’m sorry I I really

Completely disagree I think that of course you’re not evil for wanting to eat meat I just wish as a society people like politicians people on panels stop lecturing people on the choices they just want to have meet uh when they want to I just think it’s it’s sort of

Disturbing Trend in politics where everybody has to be lectured all the time about what they’re allowed what they’re not allowed people can make we’ve got to trust people to make their own decisions give them the information but trust people to make their own decisions and good British meat is a

Fantastic product we need to support our Farmers not denigrate them and all I can say is veganer is an even worse idea than dry January uh Emily I mean James has put it in a light-hearted way but but you know there’s a serious Point behind it as

Well I don’t know what to do cuz like I’ve got on the one hand I’ve got Bim telling me that if I say anything I’m going to be lecturing people and on the other hand I’ve got you is going to give me a really hard time if I don’t answer

The question well give it a go scared of you Fiona I a bit so I I I agree that I think that you know I think I should just stop eating I should you know I along with a lot of other people probably should eat less full stop but

I’m certainly never going to stop eating meat although I do think that the proportion of meat that I have in my diet is uh is something that I really need to watch but I am never ever ever going to worry about chocolate fair enough right I’ve got

About I’ve got about half a minute left now you come here in the orange jacket since 1970 the UK’s Wildlife population has decreased by 19% and on this topic of environmentalism I’d love to know what your party strategies will do for the next 54 years my God we’ve got about

What 15 seconds I don’t think they’re going to be able to manage it but but that question may have to wait for another time I’m afraid I can’t you can do 54 years in about 10 seconds but thank you very much look time is up

Thank you so much to all of you for all your interventions and all your points very powerfully made always grateful to hear them um thank you to the panel I just want to say also thank you to actually talking about keeping meat off the menu to Susan broccoli uh and Daryl

Brennan for supplying these rather lovely pictures of uh Peter BR thank you very much thank you to the panel thank you to all of you and of course thank you to you at home for watching we are in Gillingham next week and Glasgow the week after but from question time in peterb tonight

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