In this webinar, Bruce Lascelles, UK Director of Sustainable Land Management at Arcadis, and David Manning, Professor of Soil Science at Newcastle University, discuss the role of the surface and subsurface in climate mitigation, adaptation and resilience in a post-COP28 world.
Dr Bruce Lascelles is UK Director for Sustainable Land Management at Arcadis and is passionate about promoting the importance and understanding of soils. He is 2021–2022 President and a Trustee of the British Society of Soil Science. Bruce has a background in Soil Science and Forestry and undertook a PhD investigating the development of soils in North Wales over the Holocene in relation to environmental change and human impacts. After completing a Post Doctoral project at the University of Leicester, Bruce moved into consultancy and has developed expertise in soil and Agricultural Land Classification survey, the design and supervision of soil handling methodologies and in habitat creation, restoration and translocation.
David Manning is a geologist by training and was President of the Geological Society of London from 2014-2016. He is also a member of the British Society of Soil Science. Working as Professor of Soil Science at Newcastle University, and as Honorary Professor of Soil Mineral Processes at Edinburgh University, his academic interests focus on the interface between biology and geology. David is committed to using his experience to help achieve the goal of Net Zero. His work focuses on the processes that take influence the reaction of silicate minerals, derived from rocks, within soils, as these provide crop nutrients and at the same time remove atmospheric CO2.
Zoom into Soil: the role of the surface and subsurface on climate in a post-COP28 world
The British Society of Soil Science is an established international membership organisation and charity committed to the study of soil in its widest aspects. https://soils.org.uk/
#cop28 #climatemitigation #soil #soilscience #soils #soilhealth #sustainablelandmanagement #brucelascelles #davidmanning #bsss #britishsocietyofsoilscience
Welcome everyone to uh the first BS cubed webinar of 2024 I’m really delighted to um be chairing the session today my name is Danny uh I’m the Ali career committee chair for BS cubed um and before I welcome our presenters I’d just like to give you an introduction to
Um BS CU who is hosting this webinar today so uh we’re established International membership organization and charity committed to the study of soil science we bring together those working within Academia and have a growing interest uh growing membership amongst practitioners at implementing soil science within the industry and
Those with a keen interest uh in soils we plan to host 10 webinars during 2024 so do keep an eye on our website for further details uh before we begin just a couple more housekeeping notes uh as there are so many of you here today all your microphones have been muted uh
We’ll be taking questions at the end of both presentations together um and we’ll be monitoring these uh throughout the webinar so if you have any questions please do submit them by 12:50 to allow us to get through as moment as we can um in the question time and there is a
Raise your hand button but as I said we’re going to keep the questions um uh in into the chat box um today’s presentation also has been awarded basis and CBD points so if you’ve registered with either body please contact us directly after the event uh and finally
Please be aware that we are recording today’s presentation so today’s event has been organized in collaboration with the Geological Society of London and I’d like to welcome uh Megan odonnell head of policy and Communications to give a brief introduction to the organization so over to you Megan as Danny mentioned
My name is Dr Megan odonnell and I’m the head of policy and Communications at the Geological Society um and I’ll tell you a little bit about the Geological Society before we get going um the Geological Society is the UK’s learned and professional body for a geoscience represent presenting over 12,000 members
Both in the UK and worldwide um as the national forum for debate and um discussion of earth science topics we have a responsibility to communicate um the importance of geoscience and geoscientific information and skills to society to the government to the media and to the general public as well as
Fostering debate and discussion between scientific communities so I’m particularly excited that this webinar is happening in collaboration between ourselves in the British Society of soil science today um I work in our policy team and which is sort of the relevance of the the context of the webinar and
It’s it’s cop and um the implications for sort of soil science going forward uh theme and our policy team does a number of things to engage government Parliament and policy makers on on different topics so it makes sure that relevant scientific information is communicated with those that need it to
Make sound evidence-based policies and also to make sure that the people who are making policies are connected to experts and expertise who hold their C the custodianship of that information um and so we run events and uh um we run events like this webinar in order to uh touch base with the latest
Scientific subjects and developments in this area in order to better understand how the topics that we’re representing on behalf of the community are related to public policy concerns so I’m really excited to hear from both our speakers today about this important topic but also from you as an audience in the
Question and and chat box um in terms of what’s important to you guys that ourselves and the B continue to focus on in this area thanks very much Danny I’m sorry about the technical hiccup at the beginning no problem at all thank you so much for being with us Megan uh I’d like
Now like to introduce our first presenter Dr Bruce lelis uh many of you will know Bruce he was our vs Cub president 2021 to 2022 uh and he’s a trustee of um BS Cub he is a chair of the grants and awards committee and was chair of the World
Congress of social science working group as well as the Director of um com the the company World Congress of soil science 2022 set up to deliver the event uh Bruce is pass of The Institute of professional sour scientists which uh merged with BS cubed so Bruce has about
Background in soil science and Forestry and undertook a PhD investigating the development of soils in North Wales uh over the hollene in relation to environmental change and human impacts after completing a postto research project at the University of Leicester looking at the mechanisms of soil erosion and real formation he moved into
Consultancy and has developed significant expertise in soil and agricultural land classification survey the design and supervision of appropriate s handling methodologies and in the habit creation restoration and translocation where worked across a wide range of habitats including lowland raised bogs blanket bog heathland marshy and short grassland and river systems
Bruce is currently um the UK director of sustainable land management at arcadis and is passionate about promoting the importance and wider understanding of soils he’s also chair of the C soil community of prepos practice a member of the ciw natural Capital Network Steering group and sits on the the crille
University environment industry and advis advisory panel so over to you Bruce thank you thank you very much Danny and and good afternoon to everyone um I just check you can see the presentation yes all good fantastic um yeah so um I’m going to focus on um sort of perhaps close to
The surface um and I’ll talk about cop but also kind of just trying to pull the focus into in terms of what’s next in relation to one particular aspect about nature based Solutions in that context of uh the climate and the biodiversity crisis um but first of all I want to go
Back to um the end of last year with that question where do soil’s feature at cop 28 um and I think it’s really worth looking at this um as it leads on to the question of where we need to continue to focus uh and where we need to continue
To drive for for that sort great recognition of the role soils play so it was a really really active time for for BS cubed uh and for soils more widely at cop 28 um and I think it was a really um very definite step change um that I’ve seen that this is
That’s the third cop I’ve been to and I’ve just put a few of the highlights onto the screen here with with some photos from myself and some from from Jack our current president as well who was there so we ran a a joint event with with cash and that’s the Coalition um of
Action for soil health and also the climate Center it was focused on natural carbon sequestration um and leveraging soils for mitigation storage and biodiversity uh we also took part in a side event on strengthening ndc’s so that’s nationally uh determined contributions but uh for soil health and and learning around that from practical
Experience again I think that was a really important step I think it’s the first time that soils have been included in so health has been included in in uh ndc’s as well we took part in a panel discussion with the world Business Council for sustainable development um in relation
To nature-based Solutions in Urban Development and you know many many other conversations we have we had sorry and so I think it’s as I said it was a really significant step change in both our own engagement so the the BS Cube engagement but also in in how often um
And in what context soils were being discussed and so with that step change I guess question is you know as I said what next for soil this all critical resource which is non-renewable multifunctional incredibly diverse and so on and so I think we need to ask those questions how
Do we build further on the messaging and the engagement um around how important soils are to so much um of what we rely on um and that really is building on as I said that sort of breadth of conversations with which I came I heard um um sorry my screen is flipped
Um and so how do we you know I said how do we ensure others recognize the role soils play in in plant Health in Animal Health in our own health and well-being um all of which is so critical in that conversation around climate change mitigation adaptation um and
Resilience and so that’s why I wanted just to focus on on nature-based Solutions um why those are important and therefore why we also must be talking about the RO the role that soils play in these as well and you know clearly carbon is going to be a key
Consideration and and a key driver but I do think it’s really important when we talk about the role of soils in in the climate and biodiversity crisis that we do so in the context of the societal benefits which come through through the implementation of of some of the changes um which are required
Okay so naturebas Solutions what are these um so there is now a legal requirement uh in the UK for developers to deliver 10% biodiversity net gain now you know many organizations already have their own targets for biodiversity gain some of which um are definitely more aspirational than than the 10% that’s
Been set by government but what we have here is a is a key driver for change uh and that’s changing how land is used and managed and I think it really brings into the conversation that the concept of of stewardship and so it’s it’s really incredibly important that the role of
Soils in supporting the sustainable land use change required to deliver these targets is fully understood and I’ve just pulled out a definition of naturebas solutions um on the screen there and whil this doesn’t mention soils specifically you know they are definitely as a so scientist at the
Heart of this you working with nature and we’ve got this reference to the management of natural and seminatural ecosystems and so we need to understand how they function how those parts uh link together um and I think it’s really important as well in in this conversation that the role of soils is
Recognized in all aspects of land use change that will be needed to deliver outcomes from nature-based um Solutions and so I’ve got over the next um uh few slides uh some of sort of you know the some of the sorts of naturebas solutions um that you might not perhaps think
About I want to talk about scale as well and there particularly focus on the urban context and I think this is these are also perhaps elements um where perhaps the importance of the SLE component is not always um adequately um recognized or understood so first of all sustainable
Drainage Systems um this is one area and S of as many people refer them refer to them um are so much more than just sort of grassy swell so there is a grassy Swale on the screen there but Suds can be multifunctional you know they can support biodiversity they part of our
Street Scapes uh making up open space um which can bring you know so many health and well-being benefits to the uh communities in which they’re cited and the nature of the soils which support Suds will be critical in that multifunction ity um and also then it’s important to to recognize that they
Don’t need an comprise um soils but they could be constructed from soil forming materials to provide the very specific functions um that are needed and again that’s another aspect that can you know support reuse of materials and and the circular economy and so on um green Walls is perhaps another
Feature um these bring landscape air quality benefits and other benefits um as well and again the nature of the materials used or or designed in the sort of constructed soils context to support these will be critical in ensuring their success um then kind of following off from that theme finally
Sort of green and and brown RS you know where again the the nature the materials used um will be critical um in their success and again we you start to see that ability or the opportunity to not necessarily use um soils that have been taken from somewhere else but to create
Soils from materials that you find um within the within these contexts in these environments as well and I mentioned scale earlier as well and I think it’s really important that there’s recognition that the benefits we can drive from from having the right soil supporting nature-based Solutions can happen at all scales um
It’s not something that can only be driven through sort of large scale rural land use change and there’s a really sort of good growing body of evidence small scale changes within the urban landscape um perhaps you know use the the phrase Greening the gray bring really tangible benefits in terms of
Community engagement um increases in Journeys by ferti or bicycle um but also in particular um bring greater understanding of and care for the natural environment and I think in the in the urban context and and probably the rural context in many cases as well this is so important
In relation to engagement um in relation to you improving the quality of life and it it can really start to drive the conversations about the natural environment which will open up new opportunities to talk to different audiences um about soils and the role soils play as
Well and I think in in in in these sort of conversations inevitably uh when looking at these sort of solutions and when you start talking about benefits the conversations will turn to to qualifying quantifying in and monetizing uh the benefits and you know whil there are different opinions on whether we should
Or or can assign a monetary value to the natural world and the benefits receed um I think it’s really helpful to work through these steps as these Elevate the importance of what we’re trying to to achieve and as as I just mentioned you know they’ll provide many more opportunities for for conversations to
Be had around the um the sore component now I think from from my experience you know in the urban context it can be quite easy to identify you know reasonably wide range of potential stakeholders who may benefit from from a change in that environment um you can
Start to to look at you know quite a wide range of of of means and and ways to measure those benefits I mentioned about you know greater uh uh commuting uh Miles by fertile bicycle Etc because people are enjoying these environments um and you can then start to um think
About monetizing those benefits in in different ways um but as I said you know there’s a growing body of evidence that that truly integrating nature into our designs um does bring value and it does start then drive the solutions that we need around climate change mitigation adaptation um and resilience as well as
Um sort of improvements and enhancements in terms of biodiversity and just on the on the sort of the monetizing um Point I’ve just pulled out this um example in relation to to London trees which probably was a few years ago I think now but it’s this calculation of um over 130 million
Pounds worth of benefits in relation to property value air quality carbon sequestration health and well-being Etc and the point I wanted to make here is I think as soil scientists we need to tap into this narrative um to drive better recognition of soils to drive uh more care more thought more monitoring more
Data more research uh and so on all the things that you know very often we’re kind of crying out um to to get or to find funding for as well so what do we need to do well you know we need to to promote this concept of of sort of system thinking
Amongst others and and the sort critical importance of of understanding the physical environment and and from our perspective as a s scientist from understanding the the place and the role of soils within that so you know how do how do those soil forming factors of geology topography climate time land use and
Land Management come together to create the soils that we we see in any given location if we have that understanding we can use that to start to design the soils that are needed to support the Landscapes and environments that we need not withstanding that we we want to be
Working with environment with sorry working with nature as that as that description said um and and maximizing the ReUse of materials um that we’ve got available in any given location as well and I put um after climate I put change there uh in Brackets um I think we also
Need to make sure that we’re designing um and thinking about the soils that are needed for for what the climate will be in in coming years and coming decades as well and then very often again I think you know we miss that that longterm view there’s a lot of sort of short termism
Perhaps around decisions that are made so I just want to um end with a two examples of where uh as a focus on this this this sort of new approach has brought value with with soils and the physical environment very much at the front of of the thinking and the approaches that’s been
Taken so the first is uh langar Garden Village which is a new proposed development in Corall and on this project there’s been a real drive to embed an understanding of the soils and the fiscal environment in decision making right from the outset um and in in the context of this project
That’s particularly important this development will have a relatively long buildout program so potentially not complete deed for for maybe 20 or 30 years so we undertook um extensive soil and and agricultural land classification surveys um to inform the planning process and that was very much a start of of the
Conversations but this information is now being used to to build on um and to assess the capability essentially the capability of the available resources within the the the boundary and footprint of this development to support things like ongoing agricultural production in parts of the site which
Are not yet to be developed and may not be developed for another 5 10 years um looking at how we can make best use of the the soil materials available to support local food growing to support the the landscape and the landscaping that’s required um but also then to support ecological
Mitigation and this has been set out as a sort of an overarching um soil strategy um and I think it’s been really important you not a complex document but it’s it’s providing um a platform for more detailed design and planning and it’s also just there in the planning documents as a reminder that
People need to come back to that and make sure that the the right questions are being asked uh the right information’s available and and the right expertise is is is being used on the project and um yeah so and ultimately it’s hope that this will help and ensure
That the best use of is made to support the delivery of the vision for this development so larth aspires to be a place where where people will live work and Thrive that’s you know one of their taglines but that can only happen if the whole system including the the people
Who are living here um and it’s a System created on the soils is healthy and functioning so um you know I not see the end of the project but it’s going to be really interesting to see how this develops and and and how we can take take that that concept and the strategy
Into the level of detail that’s required to actually um design uh create and build uh what we what will be at larth as well excuse me um and the next example another Housing Development and this in this case it’s otle Park um in Kent uh and this is a proposed Garden Town um
The master plan the overall master plan um is for up to 10,000 homes new homes so you know a large site um the site is is currently uh predominantly um agricultural land and extensive areas of agricultural land uh you can see on the screen there as well but really key to
The development of the master plan for this site has been the understanding of the existing natural environment so that the design can work with nature to use that phrase again but really importantly to deliver multifunctional green spaces so so really having that concept of of nature-based solutions of biodiversity
Net gain of of integration of of the natural world with the built environment very much um at its heart and I’ve just shown a few um some some of the design Graphics um from the project here but I just wanted to um highlight some of the sort of the the
Key metrics perhaps which are worth um worth thinking about so firstly this phrase It’s a landscape Le design which really um Ena the team to draw on that understanding of the system of the natural environment of the the existing biodiversity but also the the sore resources um that are available on the
Site as well um I’ve just added this it didn’t actually this is this is more recent it didn’t come out in the in the on the slide on the metrics but it’s a scheme which will deliver nutrient neutrality um through the design through the design of the green spaces and the
And the master plan and again that’s a a reasonably new but a really really important concept to enable um developments to happen but by but with also minimizing the the potential impact and long-term impact on on the natural world as well um so this this project will deliver uh 20% biodiversity net
Gain which is OB well above the the sort of the legal mandative requirement um and that that’s been again comes to the heart of what this Project’s been about because this project been running for many years before um that that bers gain Target was was kind of being talked about
Properly but I do do want to just focus on on this um Point here where it’s a scheme which is going to deliver 50% open space and this is perhaps where some of my conversations um have been focused on um and I think it’s an area
Where we we do need to question we do need to delve um a bit deeper because you know development with 50% open space is is great it’s a great concept but we need to ensure absolutely as I’ve been sort of talking um through the presentation that it’s quality um open
Space it’s multifunctional open space not just for in the uses that it has but in the in the services and the benefits that we get from that space and I think that’s what really then starts to uh to make a design um you know truly kind of
You know Forward Thinking uh and really then brings in that absolute requirement to understand um the soils and that physical environment so perhaps then if I sort of go back to okay well that initial question what next for soils we clearly need to keep the momentum going it was a
Step change at cop 28 we just need to keep picking up that pace uh and picking up on those those threads and I just try to kind of sum that that sum that up in terms of what I see and where my focus would be so um we need to draw on site
Specific knowledge we need to have that understanding of the system you know noting that that may or probably will require field-based surveys but also drawing on newer emerging Technologies remote sensing the use of drones and so on we need to make sure the right expertise is brought to the
Problem um but in that concept being really conscious of working in a truly collaborative you know multi disciplinary Manner and as I mentioned we need to make sure we’re delivering quality outcomes um and so you know as as I’ve mentioned in terms of what to p that
Concept of S Health s function will be absolutely critical to to the success the true success of these schemes and as I mentioned we also need to tap into that that those conversations around quantification and and and monetization as well to make sure that that is driving uh future understanding future
Work future research Etc around soils and really that’s hopefully what will help drive us towards and enable us to realize what RN Jones um at the World Congress of s science at 18 months go uh called this new normal this concept of sustainable soils that are part of and
Essential for and perceived to be and understood to be essential for climate neutrality reversing biodiversity loss safeguarding human health um and so on and so you know hopefully we’re not too far away from from really starting to see that particularly with that momentum that perhaps came from from cop
28 um yeah and I will I will leave it there thanks Bruce it’s really great to hear that um the conversation is becoming more prominent at cop around soils uh and then seeing some examples of um plans for nature based Solutions closer to home um so I’ll remind you all
To submit your questions in the question box and we’ll come back to them at the end of our session um so thank you Bruce and we’ll move on to our next speaker Professor David Manning uh David is a geolog geologist by training and was president of the Geological Society of
London from 2014 to 2016 he’s also a member of BS cubed working as a professor of s science at Newcastle University and an honorary professor of s mineral proces at Edinburgh University his academic interest spoke on the focus on the interface between biology and geology David played a major role in the
Delivery of the 22th World Congress of soal science as co-chair of the scientific program committee and was director of the company World Congress of so science 2022 set up to deliver that event David is committed to using his experience to help achieve the goals of Net Zero his work focuses on the
Processes that take influence um on the reaction of silicate minerals toide from rocks within soils as these provide crop nutrients and at the same time remove CO2 he also carried out extensive research on carbon and soils using therbal analysis to develop methods to distinguish organic and inorganic carbon
And to understand the transformation of organic carbon that participates in the biological carbon cycle to form inorganic carbon which does not play a role in that cycle he currently um has active projects relating to enhance Rock weathering and crop nutrition in Brazil and the UK developing others in Thailand
And his in the UK includes major funded projects for the ministry of Defense in the context of s Caron capture as a process needed to achieve Net Zero um David has over 160 per reviewed Journal papers and has been awarded recent prizes that relate his work on soils
Receiving the claim minerals group of the mineralogical society’s designation as George Brown lra for 2021 so without further Ado over to you David right thank you very much and um I hope you can see my presentation I’d like to thank Bruce for setting the scene and preparing the ground if I
Might use those words so allowed me to say perhaps rather fewer words in my presentation because what I’m going to focus on is the role of the subsurface in the sense of the way in which enhanced rck weathering is suddenly appearing as a a nature-based solution which is growing so rapidly that uh
There are all sorts of implications we know that the targets that some commercial operations have in this space are very ambitious so there’s a company called undo which is planning to U remove 1 billion tons of CO2 by 2030 as a hard target and this is an ambition
Which is really really laudable very very ambitious um and the scale goes all the way down to what Bruce was describing about the development of um local uh activities and one of the concepts we have is the concept of carbon capture Gardens which is where this process is used to really bring it
Home to people how they can use enhan rot weather in their own Gardens and in their own landscaping particularly in urban environments so I’m going to focus on the science behind this and then talk about some of the implications of How It’s put into practice and it’s a nature-based solution we’re we’re
Looking at a natural process here by which rock removes atmospheric CO2 and that has controlled the CO2 content of our atmosphere throughout geological time so we know it happens we know very well that it happens it’s a process which involves the weathering of rocks and that weathering of rocks is a
Fundamental soil forming process it releases the nutrients that crops need for growth the major elements like pottassium in particular silicon for grasses and cereals but also Trace elements and if we look at enhanced Rock weathering as a a process we can use in handling land in helping manage land
Better there are two benefits one of them is to reduce the dependency on chemical fertilizers although there’s no scope for that influencing nitrogen fertilizers and H hand sh weathering has no impact on nitrogen fertilizer use but the one which I’m going to focus on today here is the removal of atmospheric
CO2 now if we go back to geology 101 uh then people learn about rock weathering and we’ve got the mineral names in this image here uh those which um are least resistant to weathering and so weather fastest at the top of this screen and those which are most resistant to
Weathering and survive all the way through to the end of the weathering process such as quartz the bottom of the screen and you can see that particular minerals release particular elements so magnesium magnesium ion and calcium coming off from the least resistant minerals then pottassium coming through
And rather more resistant minerals a bit of magnesium still calcium and sodium coming through from the least resistant and then working their way through to potassium again at the end this weathering sequence is one which is extremely well known and has been known for uh well a hundred years but
Documented by goldage in 1938 the the important thing about this is carbon and the reason I say that is because when these cations are released they’re released as as charged ions they have a positive charge and you’ve got to have an equal negative charge in solution otherwise it it won’t work you
Cannot have a solution a soil solution which has only one type of iron within it you’ve got to have a counterbalancing anion a negative charge and in this case this is bicarbonate that that’s the natural anion that is easy that is most readily available where does it come
From well we can look at plants as being a a CO2 pump so when we look at the green growth of a plant above the ground surface we know that that is photosynthesis that has created that taking carbon from the atmosphere but what we forget or we perhaps don’t pay
As much attention to as we should is what’s happening below the ground and below the ground we’ve got an equ equal amount of carbon going through the root system but not just forming the biological materials within the root system itself but also being exuded by the root system like the organic acids
The below ground biological activity is enormous so the organic acids provide substrates microbes the roots are being turned over decomposed and so on as they die and that’s a very complex set of processes but the bottom line is that it all ends up all that carbon ends up as
CO2 effective in the soil solution and that then goes into the soil solution where a proportion of it forms carbonic acid h2co3 and here schematically at the bottom of the screen you can see that carbonic acid reacting with a calcium silicate to give you calcium carbonate and and silicone solution of course the
Calcium carbonate you can find as pedogenic carbonates they’re well known and have been studied for decades and used to determine past climate so if you want to just put it in a nutshell if you don’t like chemical equations we can take a fresh silicate Rock uh add water and CO2 and we produce
Soil with cat ions and bicarbonate in solution this takes us into enhance rot weathering because this is a process we want to exploit to take CO2 out of the atmosphere through the artificial enhancement of this rot weathering process and the basis for this is to crush the rock but you’ve got to have
The right sort of rock uh then to spread it to land and then once it’s spread into soil nature actually takes over and does the rest and this is the inherent property of it being an hbas solution so let’s have a look at the process there’s there’s a pipeline to enhance shot
Weathering you have the mining of the rock it’s processed it then is loaded from the stockpile in the quaries taken by Road normally to be spread in the field and then in the field it goes into the weathering process where CO2 is removed and goes into the sour
Solution So within this we’ve got the um the pipeline if you like where the production is something which is constant for many many years because you’re producing this from a fixed plant that has taken a certain amount of capital investment and is not going to change very much over time that be
Updated and um but not modified greatly necessarily for many many years then unique to each customer and there maybe thousands of these you’ve got the distribution cost and then the spreading you’ve got the different crop types different soil types and this is something which has to be taken into
Account when looking at the life cycle analysis in particular of this process I’ll come back to that shortly and then in the weathering side of things for quantifying and Bruce mentioned how important quantification was and I fully agree this is a difficult bit here because we’re looking at an open system
Where weathering is taking place so something is disappearing how do we determine that modeling and measurement to calibrate those models is the key thing here so when we look at what we mine then we want to get the right rock at the right scale and here you can see in the top
Left we’ve got a quarry producing this rock the rock is there with a finger on it in the bottom left picture here we can then look at it under the microscope in the top right and we can see textural variation there different minerals there we can then go to the scanning electron
Microscope to scale it up again we can do chemical analysis we can do minerological analysis the bottom line is that we’re dealing with a very very complex material and it’s very easy to fall into traps and not to be fully aware of what the material is that
You’re actually working so this bit is really important the important thing about this is that only then when you’ve got the right data Can you estimate the potential CO2 removal for a particular Rock and you need to have the expertise that comes from a competent person to to
Be sure that you’ve got the right information that it’s being correctly used and this is where the Geological Society comes in uh through the professional status in the same way that BS Cube comes in with the professional status for S scientists in delivering a competence that allows people to trust
The person signing off the claim for the CO2 removal then when we go to the destination of the carbon where does the carbon go well I mentioned modeling and measurement and those are vital and that typically we might bear in mind that if we look at a soil system here we we
Apply the uh the um rock dust to the soil and we’ve got when it rains the we’ve got evapor transpiration which we’ll see some water going back into the atmosphere we’ve got surface flow taking it surface water systems and we have ground water flow one of the key things
About enhanc R weathering is we need to understand the groundwater flow because that varies from one part of the planet to another of rain water of precipitation that isn’t evap transpired in the UK the back of the envelope calculation says 10% goes into groundw but in Brazil it’s 50% that makes a very
Very big difference to the to understanding the destination of this car that’s gone through to bicarbonate the experiments are used to measure this are like on the left of the screen here very simple experiments a bucket of soil in this case on top of a receptor that
Can take the water that’s coming through the soil chemical analysis to measure bicarbonate is the bottom line here and that then is used to calibrate the models of carbonation and transport it’s very important to think that bassal is actually an aquifer and in in Brazil and many other parts of the
World in fact in total hundreds of millions of people worldwide will be drinking ground water from acers and it is perfectly safe to drink so that helps understand the some of the issues relating to the safety of using these particular rocks that people drink water from them all over the
World then the carbon cost here this is the one which is really important to bear in mind because what’s the point of having CO2 removal if it costs more through crushing and transport than the benefit and this is really interesting when you look at the carbon cost of a
Quarry like this one here you can see you’ve got the fixed costs of putting in all this installation here it can be very cheap it uses electric power hydroelectricity in Brazil it could use green electricity more than it does now the cost of producing this is the same a
Ton of rock crushed is about the same as a liter of milk so it’s a very very low carbon cost very efficient process then when you move to spreading in the field these are custom customer specific with customer own equipment diesel powered then we start to see a higher carbon
Cost coming in for transport distribution spreading but we can measure both of these they’re two different systems they’re connected they need to be considered as two separate systems with the connection apparent for each single case so the role of the subsurface here just to wrap up and leave time for
Questions is that the we here see the opportunity for geological materials to be used increasingly for uh soils for particular purposes for nature-based Solutions the important thing about this is when it comes to scaling even with an ambitious Target of 1 billion tons per year sorry 1 billion tons total CO2
Removal which is 5 billion tons of rock typically that needs to be spread to soil we actually have the infrastructure to do that we’ve got the regulatory infrastructure we’ve got the physical infrastructure it’s already there and so it’s possible to scale rapidly the key challenge in all of this is the
Validation of the CO2 removal because that is a difficult thing how do we measure something that’s disappearing how do we measure something that’s being taken from the atmosphere through a weathering process into an open system which is effectively what the the sort of solution is thank you thank you David and leaving plenty
Of time um for questions so um people have been sending in their questions so I will um go through and one or a couple from um Marta for you dat um she’s interested in knowing about this material in UK Cas soils where perhaps there might be high magnesium um
Or heavy clay and um the effect on S pH which might have an effect on nutrient cycling yeah so this is the bit I I haven’t talked about I suppose is that before you use any of these crushed rocks you really do need to know the
Soil that you’re going to apply them to and what the soil characteristics are so typically when we’ve tried these experiments we’ve been doing these on Newcastle University farms for example we’re seeing a pH change from maybe 6.5 to seven okay so spreading 20 tons per hectare so quite small changes in PH but
There is a tendency for the use of some of these cross rocks to to raise the ph slightly uh but again it’s a case of understanding the application in terms of the mineraly of the soil that you’re working with not just the chemistry of the soil but what minerals are actually
In the soil in terms of geological minerals and the mineraly of The Rock that you’re spreading so everything is very very case specific thank you and I’m gonna head back to Bruce for a moment Willie Towers says great talk Bruce um inspiring actually uh in one of your slides you mentioned identifying
The disbenefits of approaches uh have you come across any or other unintended consequences and if you have how do you resolve them um yeah I think in in all these conversations and particularly when you try to uh Elevate the conversations into into system thinking multidisciplinary um thinking you you do
Need to be very conscious of of potential um conflict or potential unintended consequences and you know for for well we’re still in the place where soils lack legislation um limited policy compared to say biodiversity where we now have this mandated requirement and I think we do need to be careful and mindful that
Um we don’t slip into sort of more siloed thinking so you know absolute biodiversity is is absolutely critical and enhancing biodiversity but we need to make sure that’s being done in the context of what other benefits there are and I talked to my colleagues who who who specialize in in biodiversity that
Gain and they are very conscious of of promoting the conversation around layering the benefits how how can we look at the the the multifunctionality the multiple benefits that can be receive from any location with those conversations we’ll probably always have to um take into account that we can’t deliver everything everywhere and so
Then so I come back to then that that sort of um you know thinking about soil forming factors our soils as an example are kind of a unique representation of the uh specific climate tophy geology Etc in any given location and I think if that’s our starting point that starts to
Inform us what’s the art of the possible what can we achieve and then we’ve got to look at the other drivers who you know where does funding come from what does funding need to focus on what um what targets to those individuals or those um companies who are involved what
Do they want to try to deliver and it yeah it’s a it’s a bit a puzzle to put together but I think if if we if we’re open and we’re collaborative I think we can we can minimize the any sort risk of dis benefits thanks Bruce another one from
Analise Whitley um kind of on the same topic there was saying about um the importance um of soils and careful soil management how is that transferred from um transferred through to the developer the developer and implemented especially in the construction phase where performance um of developers volume house builders and
Their ground workers might be poor regarding soils yeah it’s a it’s a really really good question um and I think we’ve come a long way um I did unfortunately hear someone on meeting um only last week use the phrase Muk shift but um in relation to soil movement on a construction site
Um but generally you know a lot of people I talk to and work with um who are Developers or contractors and recognize that it’s not a Muk shift it’s not just dig it up shift it somewhere and then get on with the important stuff um but I think there
There is still a big gap and I would say perhaps the the key thing is is skills and knowledge so these sorts of conversations and engagement um we need to make sure we’re we’re talking to as broad an audience as possible um we need to to make sure we’re engaging with with local
Authorities to work out and to understand where this where the skill gaps lie where the knowledge gaps lie and and how how can we work together to fill those um because you know probably the question you know it is right there is a there are situations where you know
We can write a detail s Management plan sit on a shelf and no one will actually go and look at it so so that implementation um Bas is is really really important but we’ve come a long way um you know a lot of people I work
With now are very well informed and you know some of the conversations I have are really truly recognizing the the importance of getting the soil right in order for not not because they’re interested in soils but they want to deliver high quality high value housing to use housing as an
Example thanks Bruce um and while whilst we’re coming to to you for questions I’ve I’ve got one um so I was lucky enough to go to cop 27 last year and um I felt like the um risk associated with investing in climate change mitigation was still
Considered such a big risk and I was wondering from your experience of cop 28 did you sense a change in this particularly um with that increased compensation around soils uh yeah I I I think there is a a growing drive around around investment in in all aspects of climate change uh
Mitigation in particular um and and I and I think it’s through having been I said I’ve been to three cops having been to all of them I think the the the prevalence of um of funders green funders sitting on panels um in conversations has has grown um and I
Think that’s really really important because all this requires the funding um as well but you know the question talk about mitigation and I know definitely from from Glasgow cop 26 there was a lot of talk around how the adaptation piece was not being invested in everyone was focused on
Mitigation um but the climate is changing the climate has changed and so we’ve got to make sure we’ve got the sufficient funding and and there was a call at cop 26 for um Equitable funding between climate change mitigation and adaptation um I think that shifted and I
Definitely C 28 there were I think I found there were more conversations around that were picking up on adaptation as well but um maybe that’s an area to focus on thanks Bruce uh moving back to David now I’ve got a question from Christopher Ley what are some of the controls on the
Rate of um CO2 removal by enhanced weaing thanks uh the key to this is understanding the weathering rates of the individual minerals that are present in these rocks so different minerals weather at different rates and so the U you need to know what the minerological composition of the Rock K so that you
Can then use published weathering rates to be able to model the weathering of the composite mixture that the rock is made of but equally you need to take into account the grain size and so the the finer grained the material the more quickly it weathers and there’s a
There’s a sweet spot if you like in the way in which these materials are reduced in size you’ve got the energy cost of reducing grain size on the one hand to worry about so cost a lot of energy to get a flow like the flow you use for
Cooking in terms of how it feels between the fingers and and then you can that would be the idea for getting the most rapid reaction but then there’s a compromise where you might not go that far spend a lot less energy on on crushing but you’d have a coarser
Material that feels gritty in the fingers and that material is a material which most people are using uh because it works adequately so this is where the um the rate depends on the rock type the minerals in the Rock and the amount to which it has been crushed and
Milled thanks David um and another one from Chris in terms of the can we put a monetary value on the carbon capture to incentivize this use of um crushed rock people are doing that because there are businesses set up uh who are trading in this method of CO2 removal and the
Thing to remember with that is that it isn’t like organic carbon it’s very different you can’t take a soil sample and then have an instant answer from a lab from a single number uh and the resources that are needed to calculate the amount of CO2 that’s been removed
And that then can be monetized is that they they require a multidisiplinary team of people and this is where I think we’re seeing the development of businesses in this country and internationally where those people are being hired um scientists and people from different disciplines outside science but scientists from different
Disciplines within the Sciences to be able to come up with robust ways of measuring the amount of CO2 removed so that when those CO2 credits are sold they’re sold with confidence in the numbers that are being generated uh and that’s not something um any single landowner can do I mean the size of
These operations is enormous uh and the amount of money required to keep them um running is en ormous as well uh so the other side of the coin is that there’s no harm done to the soil in the uh in in a farming sector a farming setting um by
This process and indeed you might see increases in soil organic carbon which a farmer could um use for carbon benefits there are other benefits which Farmers have reported to to me when talking to them who’ve been using it um increases in biodiversity uh which is good in that
Setting as well well but also in improvements in animal health and and we know farmers who have seen their vet bills go down and the saving in the vet bills has covered the cost of buying these materials so there there are benefits which we would never have
Expected and um what about in terms of um does it have any effect on the nitrous oxide emissions um from from arable land question from Fus I think the jury is out on this there are some papers coming through which show that it does but don’t think anyone yet understands in
Detail why that is or how that relates to particular rocks and particular applications and a question from Mandy stoker asking free advice uh she says that um they’ve been given a silic based product to put on the um the crops and the farm sold on the basis that it
Enhances growth of crops uh hasn’t been tested yet but understand how uh this might work looking at your Chemistry if minerals are released then maybe we can get more growth and more CO2 SE sequestration should I try it well the answer is yes it’s certainly
Worth a try but whether it works or not will depend on a lot of factors and not least what the soil type is that you already have so um we see the if if we’re trying to design an experiment with students for example to show whether or not these rocks work we
Always start off with the simplest mineralogy of soil we start with a quartz or a sandy soil and then it’s easier to see the effects and we make sure that we don’t add composts because sometimes in some of the experimental work that’s been published it’s the compost or the manure that’s provides
The benefits rather than the mineral so you just have to be a bit careful about how how the trial is designed thanks David um couple questions coming in for Bruce again so um one from uh sarak co uh the residential example with nutrient neutrality that you spoke of was it a closest
Uh and also a question for both of you how do you judge the monitoring required um balanced against modeling verification expectation um I didn’t do all the work on the on the nality on on a so I would have to check on on the answer to that
But it was um it took quite a lot of a lot of work and and review to get to the point where I think we understood what the system uh was capable of achieving within the within the design that have been put forward in the master plan um
As well um on the second point so that was in relation to the balance between the monitoring required and whether modeling is a is a better approach is that right modeling verification yeah yeah I mean I’m sure D have a view on this but I’m it will always be a balance
Um and I think we need To we need to recognize that there is huge value in on-site data site specific information but we also need to recognize that that costs money um and time and it’s not always possible from a a funding from a Time perspective to to achieve that and to have that and so I
Think alternatives are needed yes I I would agree with that just to say that in terms of the enhanced weathering world the uh Protocols are being developed as we speak for monitoring and validation and they are evolving and developing and they’re not yet complete but in a few
Years we’ll have some robust systems for doing this and uh one for you Bruce and and maybe David as well um do you think the importance of soil ecosystems uh particularly in highly urbanized environments are being well translated to the public outside of policy that’s uh from San
Booth probably the short answer is is know um but I think there are some really good initiatives and I’ve seen um from landscape architect practices Etc some some um Urban they’re not really sort of urban Greening but but slight small scale changes to Urban environments that bring
Nature and the natural world into that system um in a in a you know really integrated manner so not not a sort of a separate Fen off Park um you know and and I didn’t show but an example um that I I came across to the landscape
Institute when I was judging some awards there which was a brilliant um scheme in Liverpool um and they were able to um ruce their design um but they did it uh in collaboration with local community they got the local community involved in the in the build the planting um the the
Management of those green areas um and their view is that there was a you know a sea change in the um perception of soils and the natural world in that Community as result of that but that’s that was small scale and I I would definitely say there’s much much more to
Do on that yes we we found fantastic responses to what we call carbon capture Gardens working with local community groups with people like groundwork involved for um helping them continue once they”re been created uh they’ve been fantastic for reaching out to a very wide community and raising awareness and developing interest and
They take a bit of carbon out of the atmosphere at the same time great thank you uh and probably time for one more question from um jam leine sorry if I’ve pronounced that wrong um they say they’re from Algeria and the majority of the soils are localized in
The Sahara in the South their question which is quite a big question uh how can we make those soils productive and capture more um more carbon that’s a big question and it would take quite a long time to answer it but the um uh there are things which
Are happening with the use of these crushed rocks for example in subsaharan Africa uh where there are improvements being observed there but the critical thing is how do you manage organic matter and water on top of that it’s easy to find the Rocks relatively speaking but it’s the organic matter and
The water which would be the key things to have sources of it does make better use of water and it can make better use of organic matter so there are win-wins here but that would be a difficult question to answer briefly thanks um so we are just um about to finish up
At 1:00 on time so um thank you all so much for your questions and I’m sure if there were any that I missed we might be able to um get the speakers to go back to you uh so on behalf of bsq I’d like to express our thanks again to David uh
Bruce and Megan um uh for coming along to support the event today thank you all for attending you’ll find a quick feedback survey when you leave the webinar which we hope you’ll take the time to complete uh the recording of This webinar will also be available after the event on our
YouTube channel uh and for those Keen beans our next webinar is um on the European European Journal of soil science as it marks its 75th Anniversary featuring one of its articles on EU funded soil projects and this will take place on Wednesday 7th of February more
Details about how to register will uh be in the follow-up email and on the events page of the BS Cube website thank you so much for attending um and we hope to see you again