Fiona Bruce and panellists debate the latest political events, live from Peterborough.
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Tonight how much does illegal migration matter to you the government’s determination to stop the boats has caused serious splits and highlevel resignations within the party is it all worth it to debate that and more we’re in the Cambridge city of Peterborough a place that’s flipped between the two
Main parties for decades our audience here tonight is a broad reflection of the electoral map of the nation they also want to ask should we be scared of a second Trump presidency and veganuary should we all be giving up meet welcome to question Time on tonight’s panel Bim aalami is economic secretary to the treasury having been handed the role by Rishi sunak late last year a former corporate lawyer he’s been an MP since 2017 and previously worked for Liz truss when she was foreign secretary lab Emily Thornbury was elected to Parliament 18
Years ago she was Shadow foreign secretary for 4 years before running unsuccessfully party leader in 2020 she is now Shadow to what is effectively the government’s in-house lawyer the Attorney General Kate mccan is a self-styled northerner and political editor at times radio she also presents the station’s Sunday morning program
Before that she had stints in political journalism at talk TV sky and the Daily Telegraph and by his own admission Hashim Muhammad went to some of the worst schools in in the country and was raised on state benefits that was after arriving here at the age of nine as an
Unaccompanied child Refugee now he’s a successful barister presents radio documentaries and has written two books one about social Mobility the other about housing good evening Welcome to our panelists Welcome to our audience here in petburg great to see you and of course welcome to you at home we are
Available as always on BBC I player and on BBC sounds and the conversation no doubt has already got underway on social media so you can join in that too but let’s take our first question tonight which is from Christina Morris hi uh is the government right in continuing to
Push the Randa plan is all the money time and res resignations worth the proposed outcomes so the government uh managed to get the safety of Rwanda Bill through the latest stage in the House of Commons but 11 conservatives mp uh MPS rebelled 18 abstained and of course notably the
Former Home Secretary and the former immigration Minister rebelled Bim yeah is it worth it I think it is and the reason why it is is because it’s a key part of our plan not the only part but a key part to tackle illegal migration uh and it’s very very important that people
Appreciate that the Supreme Court a few months ago did strike down elements of of the plan we’ve signed a treaty with Rwanda to make sure that we’ve dealt with their criticisms and their concerns and that this plan will work the Attorney General is convinced it will work the prime minister is convinced it
Will work there are many experts that also believe it can work and taken together with the other things we’re doing we’ve done a agreements with France and Albania we’re increasing the National Crime agency budget we’re processing over 112,000 Asylum claims this year which is more than any year since
2002 can taken together with all of those things it can make a big dent in our plan to tackle illegal migration and indeed in the last year we’ve brought down illegal Boat Crossings down by a third in the European Union they’ve gone up by a third showing that this is a
Problem that many countries are struggling with and we’ve got the right plan say so you say it will work you’ve got the former Home Secretary rment and the former immigration Minister Robert jich saying it won’t they’re entitled to their views well you think they might know but so with the attorney general
Enal so with the prime minister so with the current Home Secretary who was foreign secretary as well so look politics is to some degree about competing views and arguments that is part of any political party and indeed any government as you said only 11 conservative MPS rebelled on this that
Is you know out of 360 odd MPS that’s quite a small number the party is United behind this plan and hopefully it will get through the house of laws it’s was far more than that submitted amendments as you know Emily I think if anybody was in any
Doubt that what limits the number of people coming over in small boats they just need to look at the fact that for 27 days at the end of December into January there weren’t any boats and that’s because not only was it freezing cold but the wind was so strong and only
When the wind dropped this week did people get into the boats and of course it continued to be cold and we saw a boat go down in fact it didn’t even go down in the middle of the channel it went just a very short distance from on
The shore you could stand on the S Shore and see people drowning and they drowned in water that was freezing cold it was so shallow that some of the boats that was supposed to be rescuing them couldn’t rescue them and what makes me so angry is that whilst all of that is
Going on we think of who it is that’s organized these boats and put these people in because quite frankly once they’re in a boat do the do these do these gangs care what happens of course they don’t care they do not care whether they live or die they’re in the boat
They’re on their way they’ve given them the money and that’s that and what are we doing we’re allowing ourselves to be distracted by a bit of nonsense in Westminster which we know is not going to work it was never going to work and the idea that we have spent 400 million
Pound on sending nobody to Rwanda so that the government can say oh we’re doing something about it and we can just we let’s blame everybody else oh it’s the courts that have stopped us oh it’s the labor party that stopped us oh it’s the House of Lords that stopped us no
You have not been smashing the gangs with which is what you should be doing and that is what you should be focusing on and are we going to just spent a bit of that time and money focused on actually putting a cell into the National Crime agency making sure we got
The best people in there we put some decent money into it we knew that first and foremost we had to stop the boats going over coming over because of course we should not be having anyone in a small boat risking their life trying to come to the UK so Labor’s policies is in
Part as you say to use kiss Alma’s phrase which is repated many times to smash the gangs what makes you think that you can succeed where any European country with a coastline has failed because what we need to be doing is we need to be putting a great deal more
Effort into it at than we than we do at the moment do you think they’re not what you can succeed all these other count for example has failed yeah so I think this current government has not I think they I mean it’s a the situation in in
Italy is going to be different to the situation in Britain we have our particular circumstances but what we need to do is we need to be putting a lot more effort in than they have been putting in at the moment and it’s as if they already know that they failed do
You know what right do you know that this this oh we’re going to send them off to Rwanda oh it’s going to work do you know that where they were going to send it from was an airport called bosam down right and it isn’t even ready as an
Airport in fact I asked a question in Parliament saying has anybody gone from the home office to check to see how they’re doing and in the last year not a single person either a minister or an official has gone to boscom down to find out how they’re doing and then on top of
That they don’t even have any planes they are playing with us and they are not focusing on the real issue it’s not right and I’m sure that if you were a minister you would take it if you were a home office Minister you would have taken it seriously and you would at
Least gone to check to see if boscom down was appropriate as an airport and whether it was even going to work but they’re but they’re messing around in the home office has no one gone to check if the planes can actually take off I can’t I I
Do not know the movements of all my home office colleagues what I do know is that this plan is has been worked on a huge amount of effort has gone into this plan a huge amount of time has gone into this plan in fact the question was almost you
Know is it worth it I’m saying it is worth it not lack of effort that’s what I’m trying to say let’s hear from lots of hands up yes the man at back in a black T-shirt I think yeah um something I just want to ask is we spent Millions
Hundreds of millions of pounds on this project even the leader of Rwanda Paul kagame has said well it might not be even worth doing this anymore to what point do we kind of hold up our hands and go this policy hasn’t worked and what point do we kind of go yeah we’ve
Got to hold up our hands we’ve got to go this cannot work anymore this isn’t economically viable yeah the woman in the blue top yeah I heard recently that there’s only going to be about 500 people a year going to Randa and it’s a reciprocal Arrangement as well so some
Can come back to us now I just can’t see how that’s a good choice of taxpayers money spent okay and the Man in the glass is just a little bit in front of you yeah we’ve um spent a lot of money so far um and we’ve given a lot of money
To France is there not any Merit in trying to put some sort of um situation in France on the coast of France where we can monitor what’s going on then start to prevent some of the boats coming over because everybody says we’re going to stop the uh get the gangs but
We can’t get the gangs because we’re not where the gangs are the gangs are in France working over there can we not have some agreement with France where we can better what we’re trying to do there okay the woman here in the green sweater I think so much Focus gets spoken about
The money that we’re spending on this actually why the government are learning about the Pacific Solution policy implemented by Australia and actually I think we lose focus on the conditions that those refugees and Asylum Seekers we’re living in and the government are accepting that we want people to live in
Those conditions I think it’s disgusting okay hashy um the the question talked about whether it will work it won’t say it’s worth it the is it worth the prop is it worth it we know it’s not worth it you know it’s not worth it I’m sure Bim really
Deep down in his heart knows it’s not worth it and yet let’s think about what’s happening right now first things first it’s important to acknowledge that people are really concerned about the boats Crossings and so many people are dying and something has to be done I think any rational person agrees on that
Level two years ago I traveled to Dresden the town and I met an irran man who had been deported from Israel to Rwanda he’d been paid to go to Rwanda Rwanda had a reciprocal arrangement with Israel to take refugees when he got there the rwandans said you don’t need to stay there’s the
Door and he used the money that he was given to make his way back that treacherous journey and he made his way to Dresden where he s sought Asylum again the Supreme Court in Israel struck down that law and when we got to our Supreme Court there’s a passage by our
Learner judges where they said the home office hadn’t even assessed the Israel Rwanda policy before they decided to adopt it so we know it’s not going to work it’s unviable it’s expensive and the only person it’s working for is the rwandans because they won’t give us a
Penny back and what we’re seeing right now instead of them actually dealing with this properly and actually having some real ideas do you know what they’re doing they’re attacking our judges they’re attacking our rule of law they are dividing a society they are making us feel like refugees are the scum and
Who are foreign they refer to the European courts that we are a part of that have United Kingdom judges as foreign courts it’s not only just disgusting as this young lady was saying it’s it’s unconscionable the rhetoric is poison and we have to acknowledge that and absolutely I end where I started
Which is this is an issue that we need to Grapple with the gentleman talked about the French authorities the French authorities have offered for us to station ourselves over there provided we pay imagine how much we could have used for that £400,000 on that side of the
Channel 400 million I beg your pardon for us to be on that side of the channel to monitor it instead this week with everything that’s happening in the world everything that’s happening in this country this week our prime minister spent his precious time dealing with the loonies in his parties it’s unconscionable
So hashy says very powerfully uh you know it’s not worth it he’s talking about all of you are there any people here who do support the reanda policy the government clearly feels that it it has popularity yes the man here um we need to have something in place um I’m not
Sure I agree with every single aspect of the uh Rwanda plan um but at the same time I feel uh a little bit cheated as a brexit voter um I wanted us to Take Back Control of our borders uh a laws um but as we’re seing this week you know it’s
Difficult to even get this passed through our own Parliament not to mention the European laws and and everything else that we’re we’re tied into still you know so I have to say um I’m I’m not too sure but em Emily’s very quick to criticize the plan um but then
What’s your plan you know there has to be a plan we’re a small island we haven’t got room for everyone I don’t knock anybody that’s wanting to come to the UK for a better life we would all do that if if it was for us to go somewhere
Else and some do but at the end of the day there has to be a plan to sort this problem out okay I’ll come back to let me just he a bit more the man there in the of blue patent shirt yeah yes what I wanted to ask well surely the issue is
How did the uh people who are catching the boats get to Cal in the first place because they’ve traveled thousands of miles gone through several European countries to get to Cal shouldn’t we’d be looking at is how that can happen and how we could stop it happening and and
Do you do you support the government in in its do you think it’s a good idea this govern the government plan to send people to I understand the principles uh that they’re trying to put forward but one I’m not sure that the amount of people that you can send to Rwanda under
The present Arrangement is enough to deter the boat people um but we do need something in place that is going to deter people just flocking to um uh uh Cal to get a boat to come over here when they’re in France they’ve probably come through Spain or they may
Have come through Italy um you know why why did they go through these countries to get to Cal and camp out to try and get a boat okay so Kate let me remind you the question is the government right and continue to push the Rwanda plan is
It worth all the money the time and the resignations yeah the question is it worth it it’s a really interesting one there’s been some uov polling done in the last couple of days specifically conservative voters they were asked is it value for money 34% said no 32% said
Yes should we adapt or scrap the plan 46% said yes only 37% wanted to keep it as it is right now so even among conservative voters this Rwanda plan is not doing what it’s supposed to be doing but I think the conversation that we’re having here today opens up some much bigger questions
About what kind of country we want to be but also about legal migration we’re talking here about illegal migration about people crossing the channel the gentleman there said I voted for brexit I wanted to take back control of the borders but taking back control means really different things to different
People particularly in this context around immigration and when you start getting into the moral argument and how you feel about something like this kind of policy it gets very difficult I think that our politics has failed to be able to debate and talk about this in a way
That is helpful for policy and I think there are a number of reasons for that I think we’ve had a couple of big votes in the last couple of years that people wanted change 2016 2019 and that people feel that they didn’t get it but I think
On the specifics of the Rwanda policy you’ve got a prime minister who’s very good at the detail he can give you lots of Statistics but he hasn’t so far in the view of many people made the argument for this policy he hasn’t taken some of the arguments against it and
Really tried to explain why this is the right way forward I think he I I think he’s lost heart in this policy if I’m honest he never believed in it and I think the problem for the conservative party that flows from this is that what
You can see now is the Tory party is losing heart too and I think that that becomes very difficult to turn around Bim are you losing heart is the Primus losing heart is this a poison poisonous debate as as hashy is saying well look I’ll take the losing heart and then I’ll
I’ll come on to hashi’s comments look as I said in my remarks this is a key part of the policy but it is not the only thing we are doing and frankly my frustration with how this whole issue has been debated is that it’s almost been so emphasized that we haven’t been
Able to explain the agreement we’ve made with Albania where the number of removals to Albania is now know the number of people coming from Albania in illegal migration is down by 93% we haven’t government’s talked about that quite a lot okay fine we haven’t been able to talk about
Emily mentioned the National Crime agency we’ve doubled the number of people looking at this trying to deal with this problem with the National Crime agency and there are all sorts of other things we are doing yes we’ve had to have a big vote in Parliament yes it was difficult to get through Parliament
As the gentleman said earlier but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t going to have an impact particularly in terms of the deterrent effect which I believe will happen now do I think that this one thing will mean that there’ll be absolutely nobody crossing the channel I think that that’s difficult isn’t that
The point it’s called it’s about stopping the but what we’re trying to do is to reduce the number significantly we’ve already done it hang hang on a bit In fairness when the Prime Minister stands up at his Podium as he did this morning what it says is stop the boats
Not stop almost all the boats okay well look look um what I’m trying to say if we’re talking about this Veranda bill it is a key part of what we’re doing we are going this is going to make significant difference but it is not the only thing
We are doing there are other building blocks to this plan so my point is that Rwanda the Rwanda issue does not in and of itself fix the problem all the other things we are doing and we’ll continue to do and hopefully we double our efforts on all of those things taken
Together will make a significant impact in dealing with this problem and I think that the gentleman earlier on talking about um Emily’s comments I think he made a very fair point with well let’s let Emily have plan there are several things we are doing and the labor party just criticizes without setting well
Let’s Let Em answer and it reasy brief if you would but the man here saying you know you’ve got to have yeah so we need so first of all we need to crush the gangs and therefore of course we need to not only improve what we’re doing prosecutions of these gangs in Britain
Has gone down by a third uh we need to also work internationally of course we do and we need to be able to work in a against a background of trust and make sure that we’re exchanging information and work together and have projects together in in order to be able to crush
The gangs and of course the further back Upstream that we can stop people the better for everyone’s sake you know so we need to be able to do that we need to be able to have a proper returns policy yes we’ve now got an agreement with
Albania but we need to be able to have a functioning Asylum system which means that we don’t have a backlog of a 100,000 people we are not spending 8 million pounds a day keeping people in hotels you know they have they designated 5,000 people who were supposed to be designated as people who
Might go to and they have lost 4,250 of them we need to have an asylum policy that people have faith in that works properly so as frankly it did under the last Labor government hello we didn’t have these sorts of problems then because we had a proper returns policy
We had a policy that was firm and fair and fast and it has fallen to pieces under this government and all they’re trying to do is is is distract people by this gimmick of a of ruenda right I think probably be coming back to this subject over the next few months so I’m
Going to end it there for now I just want to let you know at home uh where we’re going to be next week which is Gillingham in Kent and the following we are in Glasgow so if you’d like to come to either the Gillingham program or the
Glasgow program go to The Question Time website uh details are here and you can follow all the instructions and who knows you could be sitting here instead of watching it on the sofa at home anyway right let’s take our next question now which is from Marian D Rose
I am truly scared of what a second Trump presidency May mean for interational relations the planet we call home and Society at large are you well uh Donald Trump uh as I’m sure you’re all aware won the Republican nomination in Iowa he’s got many more stages to go through
But he won the first one this week by some considerable margin and he’s also doing very well in the polls Emily should we be scared are you scared I think we have to face fact that he might end up getting reelected and I think we need to be ready I have always
Had a bit more of Angela Merkel in me when it comes to my attitude to Donald Trump and perhaps Theresa May um and I think that what you have to do what exactly meaning that you shouldn’t count out to him meaning that the only thing that he respects is people standing up
To him and showing a bit of strength I think that you must not let him push you around and you have to be clear about what it is that you think you need the a racist and sexual predator destroying the world order do you mean say that to his
Face I mean you know labor wants to be in government if you are in government are these the kind of comments you’re going to make to his face I think you have to be a you have to work with him and you have to say no to him and you
Have to say that’s not right this that is dangerous we are we are friends to America and you are doing the wrong thing and we want to be able to work with you but you can’t do this I mean that’s what what you need to do that’s
Our friends need to be able to speak to one another and if he gets elected he gets elected and we we know we work with him because we have to but we have to be truthful and we have to be strong Ben are you scared no I’m not scared but I I
Think one has to be wary and I think that what one has to be able to do is I agree with Emily in terms of we have to work with whoever and not just in America all sorts of countries have leaders that we may you know find
Unsavory but as a government you have to be able to in the interest of the British people work with absolutely everybody but at the same time we’ve got to make sure that we can separate out the person who happens for four years to be the head of state and all of our deep
Cooperation and friendship with the institutions of the United States which we should have faith in we should have confidence in their military their uh um intelligence agencies all the cooperation that happens between our two countries I do have faith in those things not withstanding even if Donald Trump is elected so you’re effectively
Saying as as Emily is should you be should the conservatives be in government should labor be in government we have to work with him of course David Cameron has described his behavior as protectionist xenophobic and misogynistic you have described him as a cancer at the heart of us politics now
He doesn’t stride I know Donald Trump but he doesn’t strike me as a man who takes insults well how is that going to work actually if you look at say sorry if you look no no no I don’t I I I don’t I don’t need to say sorry um uh you stand
By that what I would say that the that the possible future president of the United States is a cancer at the heart of us politics what what I would say is Donald Trump himself in the primary process that he’s going through and has been through in the past has said all
Sorts of things about all sorts of other people some of whom then later served in his cabinet and in his government see D didn’t really mean it is that what is that what what no what I’m saying is in politics people you have views but you
Still have to be able to work with people and I’m afraid that that is just you know how it goes if you’re in government interesting okay would there in the classes I agree with you Emil I think you know the best thing to do is
To stand up to you know people that are bullies that intimidate people through power but let’s face it this is not love actually have we really got a prime minister in cabinet right now who is willing and capable to stand up to Donald Trump no but we will hopefully
Man here I think one of the things I’m most concerned about is the posttruth element that also comes with Trump as well I mean we’ve already without wanting to Har back we’ve already got a government that’s legislating reality with the with with the Rwanda bill um
What I’d like to hear from the panel is what they would do in this new kind of post-truth world we’ve got coming to try and stop to try and stop that wave that’s coming okay let me he the woman in glasses there Emily um can you be
Honest in saying that you think Kia starm will be able to handle Donald Trump if you don’t think Rich sunak will be able to yeah how because I because my I’ve known I’ve known Kia for decades I’ve known Kia for more than 30 years and I know him to be a truthful
Upstanding and strong individual and I think if anybody would you know and and who wants to put the country first and so I think that he is exact the person we need to have as prime minister if we were to have Donald Trump as president so Kate Marian’s question is it lists
The various things she’s scared of about the Trump presidency for international relations the planet Society at large now clearly we’ve got a a war in Ukraine at the moment Donald Trump has said he’ll end that in a day um he’s made another he’s talked about drill baby
Drill from day one that whether that means oil or more fracking is is not clear what’s your view in terms of you know what you think Trump might do and how we should respond to it yeah there are some people who are very deeply worried about what Donald Trump would be
Like if he got back in again a second time around there are experts who say that he felt the first time he was too willing to go along with the views of the people around him he almost tempered some of the things that he wanted to do
And that if he did win a second term that he wouldn’t do that he would do what he wants to do go with his gut surround himself with people who are very similar to himself which I think is why people are feeling the way they feel about you know the concerns and it’s
Worth adding that b the end of your quote about the cancer at the heart of us Poli did I miss an even better bit no it it just relates quite well to to what people are saying you said it’s so sad to see the impact on their democracy I
Hope it can be repaired now I think tell him that bit I think it goes to the heart follow up with that bit and you’ll be fine think we best mes it goes to the heart of what you’re saying though which is about how politics works at the moment and I do
Think we need to be honest about about how big a problem we have there I think we do have a problem I think politicians like Donald Trump are the arsonist and the fireman they will light the fire shout about the problem and promise they can put it out and they’ll put it out
Quickly for you because they’ve got the best way the reality is these problems that we’re talking about are so difficult to solve and the honest truth is it’s not sexy it’s not quick there is no quick fix for a lot of this stuff and unfortunately that is the answer that
Politicians need to be honest with people and they need to front up and say you know it may well take us some time we can’t do it quickly it may not be what you want to hear I think if we don’t do that we get into a really
Difficult vicious cycle where you don’t get the Quick Fix and actually what Donald Trump does and what David Cameron said today about immigration policy in the conversation around around it is that it undermines people’s trust in politics because they don’t see what they want delivered and they don’t trust
Politicians and they don’t vote and I think that leaves us in a much worse place so hashy what a second Trump presidency what is that something you would welcome I’m suspecting not from from what you’ve said so far where do you think the main issues would be for us yeah I think um
For me I’m a I’m a huge fan of um the United States as a as a country and its institutions I particularly obviously uh admire the the Judiciary in many respects and should I be scared I’m not necessarily scared because there’s a part of me that’s thinking how much
Worse can things actually get but I am so concerned one primary reason being that we have a very thin skinned man who’s got a lot of scores to settle and when he left office the riot in the Capitol Hill that he had inspired had severely damaged American democracy and everything that it stood
For and with every court case that comes forward that is trying to hold him to account it would seem it only increases his popularity and at the end of the day democracy is one man one vote the other day he said in Iowa make sure you turn
Up even if you’re ill just make sure you turn up and vote and then you can die that’s the kind of mentality this man has for my part it will be such a damning result for the United States of America for him to be standing there being sworn back
Again literally meters away from where the Insurrection took place and that will be a devastating ating image for Modern democracy in terms of what it means for us as a country as I agree with what Bim said whether it’s our security services the five eyes and the sort of civil service
Cooperation that we see on that front I’m confident that that won’t be affected because in that part of of of of our institutions there are actually uh adults in the room but in a bigger context the last thing I would add is this think about when he comes into Power Israel
Palestine Iran Pak an Ukraine his own border issues deeply divided country and he’s got that on his plate it’s that is deeply concerning can I ask I mean I’m going to I’m going to do this in the interest of balance Trump has a lot of support in
America has he got any support here in the audience would anyone welcome a trump presidency yes you sir yeah I I don’t say I’m a trump fan but I’ve got American family and used to work for us company and know a lot of people in the US we’re being quite disrespectful as a
Comp country actually the way we’re talking about him and actually say getting him who what he’s done for their country a number of the people in the US say he gets things done and it’s a Pity we don’t have some politicians to do that but the only way to work with him
Is not to have some of the rhetoric I’ve heard on the panel so far you’ve got to deal with him and as much as I respect what Emily has said is I don’t think some of the the words that are used in they’re going to be useful to us at all
We have to deal with him figure out a way of dealing with him and you have to curtail some of your feelings because if not you’re going to be disrespectful both to a head of state and the American people who were supposed to be almost Brethren with okay right I hear what you
Have to say um I’m going to move on and take another question um from Valerie reesei valer um with en waiting list at the highest level since records began should we all copy the RO family and HT for Private health care all right so um news today you’ll be aware of course
That the Princess of Wales is being treated in hospital in a private hospital and the King will also be treated in a private hospital and of course we wish them uh both well uh in their health um I mean you’re making a serious Point here Valerie which is is
With waiting this you know what else are people supposed to do I think that’s the Point you’re making is it Kate this is a really I think it’s a really difficult question for any party to answer there are there are more staff and more funding in the NHS now than
There was pre pandemic which people might find quite hard to believe but that is true those are Institute for fiscal studies statistics and yet more people are waiting longer far far far longer so I think what the procedur are taking and few procedures are taking place so what the NHS has is a
Productivity problem and and a very very bad B one right it goes It goes to that point about it being a very long-term problem but what you’ve got to do is find a way to solve that I think the difficulty for particularly an incoming labor government with the NHS and with
This with this NHS problem is that people expect labor to be able to do something to solve it and I I know obviously you’re in government right now and the Tories have potentially you know a policy there but with labor I think people expect more and there is not very
Much room for labor to do very much on this issue because the money isn’t there and changing productivity levels in the NHS requires investment in technology it requires a new strategy it requires staff working with all of those things and there’s a big problem with staff
Morale so I think the answer is a very very difficult one and it’s not a quick fix and the concern is if if no politician can solve it more and more people will look to the private sector uh and indeed they are um at the beginning of 2023 the number of Hospital admissions
Paid for with private medical insurance was the was the highest on record Ash I think um the NHS is one of those really difficult conversations because I think it’s almost like a religious institution in this country and I’m a big believer in the NHS I use the NHS I can afford to go
Private but I use the NHS but the the truth is that we have not been putting enough money in in one sense when we compare ourselves to the European continent and yet the money that we are putting in it would seem we’re not getting what we deserve to get out of
It and so what I find really difficult about the NHS not even talking about whether we should be looking at privatization or anything like that at all what I find really difficult is it is an issue that we are incapable somehow of having a rational debate about what it means in an aging
Population what it means in a way that the NHS is effectively a crutch for social care what it means for the issues around Staffing levels the fact that we have to recruit so much from abroad the fact that we are not investing in the right Technologies at the right time
Procurement all of the other things and let’s be frank the HS has been starved by the Tories too for a significant period of time if you look at the investment and the ways in which the waiting lists have gone up it correlates with the period in time that Tories have
Been in power but the pandemic has exacerbated the situation as well so in my heart for me the NHS is one of those pillars of our institutions in this country but sooner or later we have to confront that it’s currently not working as it should be and we have to do
Something serious and we’re all relying on your colleague West Street and uh Emily and your and the labor government as the founding sort of fathers of the National Health Service to really fundamentally transform it so good luck okay I’ll come to you Emily a man there in the black
T-shirt um I suppose my question would be um for a labor or a conservative government um to alleviate the backlogs of the NHS weight list would um private healthc care vouchers be uh an Avenue that you might go down to try and alleviate like I said the back backlogs
That they’ve got until they are cleared and then people can go back to using the NHS as it normally should be I mean private hospitals are sometimes used but you can sometimes NHS patients are referred to private hospitals to to alleviate the backlog but you mean
Something on top of that yes okay let’s come back there’s a woman in a red top I think I can just about see you yeah yeah it’s it’s not just about privatized uh priv going to private hospitals in petersboro you’re not going to get to see an NHS dentist the nearest one that
Will take an adult who’s not on benefit is in ketering over 25 miles away so hang on hang on let’s just explore that a bit further so if you live in peterb y and you’re not on benefits Y and you want to get an NHS dentist you have to
Go 25 miles you would have to I was I was deregistered because the dentist I was with NHS dentist um canceled my appoint my regular appointment during covid and then said because you haven’t been you’re deregistered I can’t find another NHS dentist anywhere except the nearest is kering
Wow okay let me take one more Point yes the man there here on the on the end productivity I think is one of the key things to not just in the NHS but in many government areas uh the immigration process to me just seems to take so long
Why does it need to take so long the NHS I’m sure is a cultural issue uh significantly C cultural uh in terms of kind of their hearts and minds and getting Pro productivity up but I do believe in the same way as the government has had the political will to
Sort out the post office Scandal they can sort out the covid inquiry they can sort out the NHS and they can sort out the imig immigration process in a much faster and more effective way to the taxpayer okay and let me just hear from this man in the
Glasses the NHS is on its we’re willing to spend 400 million and just it it might be a dead duck on the r plan you’re talking about all right Ben so so the question is I mean not that you are suggesting that we should all go private but you’re
Making the point you know should we all be opting for private healthcare because NHS waiting list are at the highest level since records began and you were making the point about private healthcare vouches well first of all no nobody should have to go private and
Just to take you know some of the issues that we’ve heard so far we’ve heard about funding since the beginning of this Parliament and obviously covid is you know the big health issue of this Parliament so far funding’s gone up by about a third on the NHS right by about
A third that’s a lot and we were spending a lot on it before the point made about productivity I think is a very fair one and my treasury colleague Laura Trot is working on a productivity review not just on the NHS but on all government departments that is a key
Part of it because as a percentage of everything the government spends the NHS is about 42 43% % it’s a huge amount of all the money government spends and so that productivity rev you is looking very seriously at this issue and I think it’s a fair point you know wellmade
We’ve we’ve heard about Staffing and again as as Kate mccan said there are now more staff whether it be doctors nurses all sorts of other medical stuff in the NHS um than there was before but it’s not enough as you know something like like there are something like one
In 10 vacancies no look I’m not saying that all the problems are solved I’m just making the point that we are making progress but there is something that has particularly undermined on the issue of waiting list this year um sorry over the last year and that is the strikes that’s
Not that’s not fair hold on Junior doctor’s strikes have had a huge impact on waiting list they have but waiting we growing before the stri well because actually we were starting to bring them down so if you look at November 2020 I think it’s November 2023 the last month where there wasn’t
Any where there weren’t any strikes the waiting list went down by almost 100,000 just the fact that the junior doctors weren’t at strike you know we’ve settled as a government we settled with Consultants nurses all sorts of other medical staff the junior doctors have got to a place where they’re demanding
35% increase these are people who are well above average wages 35% increase which I think and the government thinks is unreasonable they should come to the table and stop these strikes which are having a huge negative impact on waiting list and on the lives of my constituents
And indeed on everybody in this country Emily the NHS is so broken and after 14 years who broke it who broke it you know this government has failed we need a change we need a change of government and we need a bit of Hope for the NHS you know when we left
Government the NHS wasn’t even an issue it wasn’t even didn’t even appear in any elections nobody thought about it because it had been sorted and now look what they’ve done to it look how bad it is you know look at the demoralized and exhausted Workforce look at the fact
That they have done nothing about social care they have not adapted at all it’s all very well them trying to blame the staff and saying that they it’s their fault because they’re on strike or if it isn’t the staff’s fault then it’s CO’s fault the waiting lists were going up
And up before Co even struck been going on for a long time should lab get into government I mean West treating has has talked a lot about a number of plans yes West where’s the money going to come from what we have done is we’ve talked particularly about particular issues so
We have a pot of money that we’ve talked about that we’re going to use in order to pay the staff more to work longer hours I know but to put their put their backs in and to help you know fight back on terms of the waiting list so we’ve
We’ve we’ve announced that we’ve announced that we’re going to introduce more NHS dentists I’ve spoken to people in Peterborough who have had difficulties getting hold of an NHS dentist and it isn’t just peterb that has this problem up and down the country people are having real problem finding
NHS dentist to get onto the waiting list what about things like new so so for example people who are trying to get who are taking uh using Private health insurance are primarily or mostly using it for Diagnostics you know colposcopies end endoscopies that kind of thing the
NHS talks about how they don’t have enough scanners they don’t have enough people to to to monitor what the scanners the results the scanners come out with where’s the money going to come from technology for example so so obviously the number of people who go for private healthcare goes up the
Longer there you have a Tory government where’s the money going to come from for the technology we’ve got an NHS that still sends letters not emails so so where’s where’s the money going to come many so many of the things that Wes has talked about is he’s talked about the
Need to put more investment into the NHS but also to be able to change some of the processes which will include you know much more work in terms of digital so that we don’t have I mean we all had that we’ve all had a letter that’s arrived after our that will cost money
That’s the point I’m trying to make of course and where’s it going come from and so so that’s why so that’s why what we’re doing is we’re being really straightforward with people and saying we cannot fix the NHS that they took 15 years to break in a in one term you know
We will need to have more than one term in order to be able to really turn the NHS round because it is linked completely with what we want to be able to do with the economy you know we have had no growth in our economy during the entire time practically that this this
Lot had been in we need to make sure that we turn our economy around we have a green Prosperity plan and we need to be able to invest we need to be able to turn the economy around and only then will we be able to put the sort of
Investment that our Public Services needs into our public services and yes it will it won’t you know if we were to be given the great honor of serving this country it’s not going to be fixed in a year we are going to need some time but
We will go in the right direction and we will listen K you want you to come back in yeah it’s just to say that you know for labor this is a real point of danger because exactly that argument is what labor is going to be making we need two
Terms to make this happen but you know people are going to be expecting change quite quickly I think particularly from a labor government and Emily you mentioned social care there I mean what is Labor’s plan for social care are you going to fundamentally reform the system
Of social care in this country when we were elected in 97 you know the only thing that we pledged at that point was that we would cut the waiting list by 100,000 and then after we had been in government for three terms look at the way in which we transer the transform
How is that answering Kate’s question sorry what it what I’m saying is that it takes time to be able what’s your plan for social that’s what you’re asking what’s your plan for we have plan so we have a plan at the moment to work with the workforce in order to ensure that
They’re properly valued and that is a really important part of it and that means they’re making sure that they are not underpaid and they’re being paid properly and so that will we hope help to attract more people to be able to come in and work in Social care because
One of the problems is is that we don’t have enough people working in the sector and we slowly build on that but we need to turn the tanker Bank around and it will take time I’m not we were talking earlier about the importance of Truth
This is truth woman here in the front so I’ve recently moved to Peterborough and so my question to the conservative party is what do we do regarding the dentist what advice would you give to me having recently moved and not been able to find an NHS dentist in peterb what advice would you
Give in relation to that particular point I don’t know the availability of NHS dentists precisely in petersb we’re hearing from the people who live here is I don’t I I can’t advise on exactly the details of piz but what I do know more generally is that we are
Increasing the funding we are making it easier for more D for more dentists to take on NHS patients it’s going to take some time to work some of this out part of the impact on this was the result of covid where a lot of things were
Untreated for a very long time and then the backlogs were difficult and some dentist and some dentists then stopped taking and the lady who mentioned earlier that she was sort of deregistered I think that was wrong and it doesn’t strike me as as in any way legitimate to do that but more broadly
We are trying to now encourage and incentivize more dentists to take NHS patients I can’t speak for Petra precisely but I know that that’s something that I suppose the answer is maybe think about going private that’s what he’s saying really lab or vote labor maybe that’s there’s lots of you’ve got your
Hands up so I’m just woman here in the orange shirt yeah I live in Peach I was also deregistered during covid for the dentist so I’ve now had to pay and go private but also I think the nhhs is broken in petar you struggle to get a doctor’s appointment and recently I’ve
Had two occasions when I’ve got through to the doctors and been told that NHS service is no longer available you have to pay for that treatment and that’s happened twice in the last six months when those two treatments um before covid were available and funded by the
NHS and now they are no longer and now they’re no longer can I just I just I’m just intrigued by this Dentistry is anyone else got experience of trying to get a dentist here oh my gosh BL me Riley okay uh big issue right well Valerie you put your hand out and you
Asked a question so what’s what’s your experience in terms of trying to get D well I’ve got to C I’ve got dentist which is about 40 50 40 miles from where I leave and and why are you going so far because you can’t get because I cannot
Get an and we live 50 Mi up north from P so North Lincolnshire right you just can’t get one there’s no NHS dentist so Bim look you’ve the conservative has been in power for what 14 years 13 14 years this is now the 14th year and you
Got people here and and Forest of Hands Up when I ask about it saying they cannot get an NHS dentist what do you say to them what I say is as I have said is I know there are problem and we are working on them but you’ve been for 14 years you got
People who cannot get an NHS dentist sorry sorry I think is what you meant to say sorry I’m I’m just thinking what you should be saying no let’s let’s let be say what what I’m saying is the impact of covid on our system was significant it’s not just in this country it
Happened in other countries as well NHS Dentistry is a big part of that and now we have got the economy turning the corner that means we’ve now going to be able to continue to increase the funding where it’s necessary but I’m not pretending that it’s easy but what I’d
Also say to you is you’ve got to be aware of when labor or anybody else says don’t worry trust us give us 10 years in power and we will fix it they’re not willing to explain the plan they’re not really willing to explain how they’re going to fund it Emily mentioned the
Green Prosperity plan which cost 28 billion pounds fine that’s reasonable but you they haven’t been able to explain how they’re going to pay for it and 28 billion pounds is roughly about six uh five five to six% extra on income tax now it’s reasonable if labor say right we’re
Going to raise your income tax by 5% and we’re going to spend that 28 billion pounds if that’s so they need to be honest about that talking about truth Emily be honest about that 28 billion where are you going to get the money from how much more you going to increase
People’s taxes in order to pay for so what we’re going to do is we’re going to build up to 28 billion pounds a year we’re going to do it during the second part of the first 5year term that hopefully will be the first and what we
Will do is we will borrow it and we will borrow it on for every pound that we spend we will be expecting £3 to come in from the private sector because what we will be doing is we will be Transforming Our Energy System so that your bills
Will go down forever because we will be making sure that we have we will have the sort of renewable energy that Frank our country really ought to be world leaders in and we have been held back you know do you know that that Ukraine right has had has built more on onshore
Wind farms since the war than we’ve been able to build at all in this in this country takes 14 years to put up a a wind turbine at the moment we will transform this and it will change our economy for the better and we will be investing that money we will show clear
Leadership and the private sector will know that for example we’re rewiring the country you know the amount of money that’s being held back because they people either can’t put their energy onto the Grid or can’t get money off the grid to set up a new Factory because because our
Our our wiring at as a country itself is completely let exhausted needs Rene when em said we’re going to borrow the money there was a quite a sizable Ripple of laughter through the audience and I’m just so who who was laughing there I just want to hear why you were so you
For example here in the in the front hang on let’s get a microphone to you there you go um more aren’t we already in enough debt but in order to be able to grow the economy we have to put the injection of of money into it in order to invest I
Mean just like people borrow to to buy a house you know we need to borrow to invest we are being really careful about making sure that the the promises we make all of the promises that we make we’re saying are costed but we are also being completely clear that we will
Build up to borrowing 28 billion a year in order to be able to invest it in order to be able to transer form our economy it’ll be worth it okay know because we will get the growth in our economy that we from so you borrow on International markets and it will be and
We will I mean we will be doing other things in order to ensure that we grow our economy we’re going to be changing the planning system and we’re going to be building 1.5 million homes that will take people off waiting list and will help them to be youngsters to be able to
Have their own places I me I’m just going to jump in only because fine these are questions you asked be able to respond we’ve got five minutes left and I just want to squeeze in one final question and maybe change the mood a bit I don’t know um James
Hutchings yes um so my question is am I evil for wanting meat to stay on my menu right well we are in the January uh still just and I’m assuming that one of the reasons this has come up is it was in the news this week that a
Col an agricultural College in Yorkshire um said it would remove meat two days a week from one of its restaurants for January for vianu and then there’s a bit of a hoo-ha about that being in agricultural college and also it has reversed its decision says it recognizes
The role that livestock and crops play um Kate as a not much meat eater am I in am I on the mar does that mean vegetarian but for the old bacon sandwich basically yeah I thought it might okay um I feel like I’m exempt from this question uh
Now look come on no one’s exempt on this panel it’s a really interesting one isn’t it this this moral question about what we eat what we don’t eat you know what we do and what we don’t do I well it’s also a climate question it’s a
Climate I don’t think you’re evil no um personally but it it it’s a debate that we’re going to have to have a lot more the levels you think we should be eating less meat well the levels of methane is the thing that really shocked me the
Amount of methane that is is released in the production of meat is what’s really worrying climate scientists but did you know that some chocolate bars release the same amount of methane because of the way that the cocoa is farmed so if you’re worrying about meat maybe we should be worrying about chocolate as
Well oh no no oh come on come on um cashy definitely want to come to your parties um uh um look I think we should definitely eat less meat not least because it’s good for your health uh not to eat so much but no I don’t think
You’re evil for wanting uh uh good meat I I like a good steak um but I just think for the environment for your own health for the NHS it would help if we ate a little bit less meat in order to ensure that we were saving the
Planet so no um you’d enjoy it more when you eat a bit less of it too so Bim you’ve got the world um Wildlife Foundation saying beef production is the top driver of deforestation in the world’s tropical forest there are some that argue you know rather than raise
Use land to raise cattle raise sheep actually if we used that to to plant crops we could feed the world more cheaply and more beneficially I’m sorry I I really completely disagree I think that of course you’re not evil for wanting to eat meat I just wish as a society people
Like politicians people on panels stop lecturing people on the choices they just want to have meet uh when they want to I just think it’s sort of disturbing Trend in politics where everybody has to be lectured all the time about what they’re allowed what they’re not allowed
People can make we’ve got to trust people to make their own decisions give them the information but trust people to make their own decisions and good British meat is a fantastic product we need to support our Farmers not denigrate them and all I can say is
Veganer is an even worse idea than dry janery uh Emily I mean James has put it in a light-hearted way but but you know there is a serious Point behind it as well I don’t know what to do because like I’ve got on the one hand I’ve got Bim telling
Me that if I say anything I’m going to be lecturing people and on the other hand I’ve got you who’s going to give me a really hard time if I don’t answer the question well give it a go scared of you f a so I I I agree that I think that you
Know I think I should just stop eating I should you know I along with a lot of other people probably should eat less full stop but I’m certainly never going to stop eating meat although I do think that the proportion of meat that I have
In my diet is uh is something that I really need to watch but I am never ever ever going to worry about chocolate fair enough right I’ve got about I’ve got about half a minute left now you here in the orange jacket since 1970 the UK’s Wildlife population has decreased by
19% and on this topic of environmentalism I’d love to know what your party strategies will do for the next 54 years my God we’ve got about what 15 seconds I don’t think they’re going to be able to manage it but but that question may have to wait for
Another time I’m afraid I can’t you can do 54 years in about 10 seconds but thank you very much look our time is up thank you so much to all of you for all your interventions and all your points very powerfully made always grateful to
Hear them um thank you to the panel I just want to say also thank you to actually talking about keeping meat off the menu to Susan broccoli uh and Daryl Brennan for supplying these rather lovely pictures of uh Peter thank you very much thank you to the panel thank
You to all of you and of course thank you to you at home for watching we are in Gillingham next week and glasgo the week after but from question time in peterb tonight byebye [Applause] [Applause]