Marcus Neustetter
29. 11. 2023 I 16.30
Čelem k umění v letním semestru 2023/24
Marcus Neustetter
8. 11. 2023 I 16.30
Čelem k umění v letním semestru 2023/24
5 / VYTVÁŘENÍ SVĚTA A JEHO SMYSLU
Uměleckému procesu napomáhají myšlenkové nástroje, partneři a spolupracovníci z různých oborů a různých perspektiv. Akty vytváření světa pomáhají dát smysl neznámým souvislostem, nevyřčeným příběhům a neznámým spolupracovníkům. Přednáška ilustruje tento přístup na příkladech uměleckých děl, mezioborových partnerech a výzkumných projektech jako je The ZoNE.
Výtvarný umělec Marcus Neustetter působí v Jihoafrické republice a Rakousku. Pro Fakultu umění a designu Univerzity Jana Evangelisty Purkyně v Ústí nad Labem připravil cyklus přednášek nazvaný Agenda zranitelnosti – naléhavost a umění v současné metakrizi.
Sedmidílný cyklus přednášek vychází z transdisciplinární a mezisektorové praxe realizované v posledních 25 letech v různých kontextech a komunitách. Odráží zkušenosti autora s působením v proměňujících se společenských a environmentálních podmínkách, ve kterých se jako umělec pohybuje mezi ateliérem, veřejným a virtuálním prostředím a ve svých kolaborativních praktikách působí jako podnikatel v uměleckém průmyslu a komunitní aktivista. Tato rozmanitost zkušeností nabízí různé perspektivy, které zdůrazňují a zároveň zpochybňují přístup umělce, designéra, architekta a kurátora v současné životní zkušenosti. Přednášky čerpají z poznatků z minulých projektů, současné praxe a představují perspektivy spolupracujících umělců, kurátorů, vědců i filozofů a jejich cílem je vyvolat kritické otázky o individuální umělecké praxi, postavit umělecké dění do vztahu k současným podmínkám a motivovat k dialogu a spolupráci.
Kurátor přednáškového cyklu / prof. Mgr. Michal Koleček, Ph.D.
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Good so um I have missed you all for the last two weeks so um it’s been interesting to reflect on the lecture series and actually change a few things again as I’m always changing what I’m talking about but uh as planned at least the title stayed the same world and
Sense making which is the next part of the series um and world and sense making um as always I’ve got some notes to share with you as we get started but before we share the notes I want to make sense of the world that you’ve created over the last while
So if you remember we layered our little collaborative story we started off with some sounds we then created the Landscapes to those sounds then we created a mind map of territories and and questions of the unknown and then we created Little Worlds for our little people that we made and I’ve just added
The thing from last week uh from the last time on top Sh Sh so for those of you that haven’t been part of this I think you’ve all been part of this journey right anyone here doesn’t know what this is okay good so you created some beautiful things last time they were all standing here the little figures inside these
Worlds and um I photographed them as you can see I Incorporated them and I thought let’s now think of the next set that links to what the today’s talk is about and that is kind of the idea of creating a collective World a collective map a collective Journey so this little
Constantina backdrop this little map in Exquisite corpse is a way of creating a collective statement and um as I said during the talk it’ll hopefully be make make more sense why we’re doing it so feel free to draw right doodle onto the page when you’re done make a mark pass
It to the person they can pass it back to you so it just becomes something that we make collectively and at the end we’ll bring them together um so this way of playing and creating mini worlds like you did last time with the little figures and that that um that paper
Sorry I just realized you didn’t remind me to record sorry so on this journey of um world and sense making um I want to talk about what you did last time with the little figures and those little card Creations these little worlds and what you’re
Going to be doing now as a as an experiment and that is this the the thing that as artists we try to as I said before make sense of the unknown make sense of the world in some way constantly and the trick to do that for
Me and it’s a little tool and I’ll take you through some tools and activities that that help make do this is to create mini worlds this idea of creating something where you are become an avatar towards something else when you change the perspective when you use um world
Making as a concept in order to tell new stories in order to understand that which we don’t understand in order to meet new collaborators and engage with the unfamiliar and I’ll take you through some of those examples and then to actually create Thinking Tools so these little playful things that we do with
The little figures or with these pieces of paper that we that we draw on Etc are all tools for actually capturing and framing our thoughts for capturing and framing new ideas and through looking at the world through new lenses and New Perspectives and so this act of doing
That as artist is an extremely valuable tool and is actually something that um I think a lot of people in society suffer from is the inability to reposition themselves and have empathy for those in other places and so um I use a kind of very consciously this world making and
Sense making relationship as a way to facilitate how to inspire myself to make new work how to get stuck when you blocked with something and you’re not sure about it someone here mentioned to me the other time that there’s a moment where they not sure how to take the next
Step for me to create these mini worlds is a is a is a game that helps break away from the big problem or the the big picture and actually zoom in and play a little bit and in that playing open up new thinking partners and thinking ideas
And so these thinking partners are quite important and I’ll show you some examples of uh collaborations and thinking partners that become really valuable um as we create these worlds and usually they come from different disciplines so while you created these I want to just make reference to a
Comparison to kind of a workshop or a game that I was playing in South Africa I think these are fantastic um I I can read so much into what was created in in these lectures at some points I was looking thinking is that me on that
Orange page where it’s empty and just me all alone so I I’m able to take myself and put myself into your Little Creations even though I know this these were your worlds but it opens up the possibility to read into it and so I want to show you an example of a similar
Kind of activity um these photographs are by a great photographer in in Johannesburg called Mark straw who came to a workshop session and and joined us with his lens so he became the witness but the workshop was really a group of artists and students or Scholars from a
School to say let’s create manyi worlds to talk about the problems that we have I won’t go into the content but what was really interesting someone actually came with a world you and said here is my world on a stick and this is actually one of those flower dried up flower um
Arrangement balls you know for for some kind of wedding or something and he says world making is already there we have a world and this idea that there’s we identify with the globe with something round as the world was a really interesting thing for me but when you
Look closely into that world that he presented us there was this little character that was sitting on the globe and suddenly his world that he holds up so proudly becomes something very different you know it’s it becomes scale it becomes a texture it becomes something becomes a
Home it becomes a surface it becomes something that that if you change its scale is really interesting now this seems very obvious but when you start playing like that every little stick every every little piece of grass every little part of a tree for example becomes something that stimulates new
Ideas and so I just thought I’d show you um to complement what you did last time so beautifully in in in the space playing with these little figures how some other people have interpreted their little figures in another completely different part of the world uh sitting
In South Africa in nature um in a park and actually playing with it and creating scenes scenes that once again witnessed and F filmed through a camera through a lens because it’s not on a lens it doesn’t exist so you know this idea of how do we frame how do we
Capture and how do we witness these things so the interesting part about all of this is that at times the figure itself becomes almost invisible so I love this Photograph because the little figure that sits underneath this big rock sitting by the plate if you don’t know straight away that there’s someone
Sitting there it’s almost invisible all you see is the plate in relation to the object uh I mean in relation to the Rock and creates a sense of scale so maybe sometimes we don’t need the people to represent that which creates a world in its own right or something that is a
Standin for a person which is in this case the plate and then the obvious is how do the toys start telling a completely different story so just by bringing in this vehicle of Destruction or construction not sure in this case and destroying the mushroom in order to
Make way for a parking lot um it’s a kind of quite nice game to play and so using toys is a really really nice way of world making and sense making um so one of the tools that I’ve got in my repertoire is toys so um I was very
Fortunate that when I turned 20 my brother turned 10 was 10 years difference and he would take me by by the hand and say come big brother stop flirting with the girls stop going out to parties you’re going to play Lego with me now and he would sit down and I
Had to play Lego with him for an hour and that was my duty as a big brother you know that’s what I have to do and it became such a nice time for me to with the age of 20 still be playing not by oh I’m going to conceptually now make art
While I’m studying and Lego has to be but just to explore what this tool is and so recently this is still a work in progress I have no idea where where this is going to go yet but I want to show you something I walked into I’m in Benin
In West Africa and I walk into a Chinese shop with all kinds of toys and I think I need something to play with was so interesting I need you a piece of plastic and so I picked up this little tractor because I remembered somehow in the back of my mind probably this image
And so so I then um coming to stay at the coast in Benin on on the coast of of West Africa and I noticed that there’s a massive construction site and because a lot of my work has to deal with um migration and politics around migration
I’m fascinated that they want to build a massive Museum here for the slave roots that came from West Africa to to the rest of the world and and as that’s happening oh sorry um as that’s happening I I find out that this whole construction site is actually funded by
China and that there’s not a single Benes person involved in the making of This construction and for me that is very problematic this is a very very complex thing that these companies coming from the outside start to take over the space and we I’ve mentioned this in the talk before this question of
A new colonial power that comes in uh financially conquering a Terrain and and exercising their power through through through what they can offer and so what I what I did is I realized that in this journey I should bring in my little my little um toy and so I thought well what
If this place where I was staying which was a little house House close by was to be destroyed because all of these this land used to be owned by fishermen and the fishermen were using this land to go out easily into the coast and now it was
All being turned into this uh almost Wasteland of construction site and the fishermen were relocated for without any compensation and so there’s this kind of complexity around this construction site so I’m waking up in the morning after doing the shadow game on the wall at night and I’m wondering what’s going to
Happen how can I in impose myself into this world making that’s happening in there someone’s creating a new world and I could not believe it as I’m sitting there my little red truck comes driving past my little red truck that I just bought in Chinatown comes driving past
And I thought wow you know this is this means something and so because it I felt it meant something I then decided to play as I said this is a work in progress I’m not sure where it’s going but it’s just this act of doing and playing became really interesting to me
And so I’m fantasizing and thinking here about how can I kind of make something that talks about the breaking down of the walls of the destroying of these homes and you know this this piece of china coming to construct a museum that I’m not sure is as valuable as the
Fisherman Villages that were there and what you’re seeing here is me having fun creating my world just like you were with your little figures and this pieces of paper last week or last time yeah I’m kind of thinking well what if I just allow this tractor to take
Over this place where I’m staying and yeah play and like every tractor and sand together it need to be a sand pit and suddenly the the sand gets moved around and I’m just going to scrub through this a little bit eventually it becomes a big
Drawing and then I feel ah now I’m being an artist again and I’m not just playing and then eventually I decide well you know let me just clean up because the guy had just beautifully swept the floor before I started to play and so I have to get rid of the evidence
You know and so I’m just showing you a kind of very personal journey of of experimenting and playing with a toy that that helps us create these worlds so for me it was a great reflection and a way of trying to make sense of this very complex situation that’s happening
And obviously this is informed by a lot of conversations with people that live and work in the area but at the end of the day it’s it’s me in a strange kind of Studio environment that has to experiment and play play in that way and that play in this case happened
In the public space but I also collect toys from for example my father and so this film called occupying a very short documentary film is me taking objects from my father’s toys when he was a child which I which he kept and gave me which are these little figures and
Placing them into a strange um home Garden space and then coming with all the junk that I’ve collected over time from all the projects that I’ve been doing and just creating a new landscape a new kind of junk filled environment again playing and then realizing only after the documentation I had a
Filmmaker fil me while I was doing this realizing that my play actually became about making this world that was overrun by this junk and that this is for me a really interesting critical moment around where play and and world making in the mini sense suddenly becomes a statement
That is quite um powerful and actually this little experimental performance um helped me break away from that which yeah blocked me at the time and so this this idea of playing with toys is one tool another tool that I always like to and and the recycling of of toys
Obviously is is what I was referring to there and the other thing that I really enjoy is the framing device how can we what tools do we have that become framing devices now we all know that this becomes a great framing device you know I look through it and you suddenly
Inside my lens and I’m framed and so um I was fortunate enough this is another one of these shorts uh films uh to my father when he passed away left me a whole lot of cameras cuz as an as a photographer he had all these cameras I
Have no idea how to use these cameras even though he Tau tried to teach me a million times and so when I unpacked the studio this is what happened and so the camera as a framing device is really interesting not because it creates only a frame when we take a
Picture but actually as an an object I think it becomes a really good tool again like the toys there’s no difference for me between the the the tractor that you saw and the camera because they both become things to play with and I’m glad to see one of two of
You are smiling because it’s also supposed to evoke some kind of humor that you can have fun with what you are exploring and the framing device is part of it but then I when I moved to Austria from South Africa the I only took one thing from my father’s with me and that
Was a camera which is the first camera he he he got which was a hle blood beautiful in a silver case and I was so excited that I could take this back to Austria because he never came back to Austria he he was born there but he left
For South Africa and never came back and I came back with his camera that he’ left behind and I and I brought this camera back to Vienna and I put it down on the table and I thought what do I do with it I opened it up I thought you
Know maybe a hustle blood camera is worth a lot I could sell it but I thought no this is his lens and as I opened it up there were 21 films tucked underneath the the what you you call the foam that that you use to protect the camera 21 undeveloped no not unexposed
Films so the film that had not yet been processed at all and so I took those I thought wow that’s a nice gift and then I saw that most of them had expired in 1982 in 1997 and I think the oldest film that was there was in the early ‘ 80s
And the youngest one was in like 98 or something like that it expired and I thought 1998 expiration date I don’t even know if I can still use these I don’t know if they will develop or not so I don’t know how to use the camera I
Don’t know how to even insert the spool I eventually used YouTube to learn it and but I have no idea what these films are capable of so let me let the framing of the lens of my father show me his places in Vienna that how he would have
Seen Vienna through his eyes with a film that I’ve got no idea if I can develop and a camera I’ve got no idea on how to use and so I’m just showing you a few photographs I’m still on this journey right now I’ve still got about eight
Spools of the 21 left so every time I go out for a walk in Vienna by myself and I want to reflect I take his camera with and I walk around and I I’m getting a bit better but I’m intentionally not asking people to teach me how to use
This camera it’s about me the camera and his perspective and if there’s something that reminds me of my father I take a picture and so what you see here are some examples of underexposed Overexposed blurry scratchy and not just because I’m not good but also because of the film you
Know I don’t know some films come out completely blank and so what’s what’s really exciting is that there are moments and references that obviously um one would understand as being part of a European city or Vienna maybe even and then there are others which become completely abstract
Um and um as I said there are many of them but there’s something so magical for me about this creation of a album of photographs after you know he’s passed away through his eyes of what Vienna could have been like in his mind through his lens with his
Exposed with his bad film you know so there’s there’s a there’s a strange searching for something that’s happening and again for me this has becomes the tool for framing it becomes the tool for holding on to a moment and creating worlds within that moment and I don’t
Know where it’s going yet it might become a beautiful exhibition one day I it’s one of my favorite ones completely gray and underexposed and and scratched up because the film is scratched it’s and they become such beautiful objects themselves and so I’m not sure yet if this is an exhibition if
This is just a series of pictures of this is just something for me but I think that this idea of creating this perspective on a world that I need to get to know through his lens is a really important game and so the lens as a
Framing device the camera as a tool to play with becomes something important but the other tool for me is not just to use them as a form of representation as I’ve shown you already but actually to think about what happens when you actually create something alien and
Unknown through the lens that you create so we know that um the realist painters painted beautiful pictures of things that we could recognize and then suddenly someone came and splashed paint all over it and went now it’s abstract and now you have to imagine what it’s about similarly we go through these
Motions as artists we bounce between being representative and being abstract so your little figures on the pieces of paper last time when I was analyzing them some people wrote notes next to the figures so that I would understand understand what the relationship is between the figure and the paper While
Others tore up the paper and just plonked it on the person and said well you interpret it and there’s something so lovely about that and so I’ve been fascinated at how can we make sense of the world and create worlds to make sense of them by abstracting that which
Should be not abstract I’ve spoken about it before but I wanted to show you this particular example because this is one of those that changed my experience completely so I was invited as an African artist or an artist from the African cont continent to be part of a
Fellowship at the Smithsonian Museum of African art in Washington DC beautiful big thing it’s a really important moment for me I’m so excited I’m going to spend several months in Washington DC in the African art Department looking at all these artifacts from Africa and then I
Realized why do I have to fly all the way to the USA to see that which should be in my museums you know why am I having to relocate and then I get to the museum and I walk around and I’m fascinated by all of these objects and I
Love art history and I love the Stories Behind These objects Etc and so I’m I’m talking to the curators and I’m saying but where’s all the other stuff you know where are the real Treasures that you have that are not on display and they take me into the store room and then I
Get really excited but inside the sto rooms I turn around and I say well um this is very nice but where when are we ever going to see these objects who’s ever going to see them and I realized these objects were all kind of standing there like lost souls you know waiting
For something to happen I felt really sorry sorry for these objects in the museum sto rooms and so I asked the curators and the custodians of the collection to turn off all the lights because there’s no better way as I said before to play in the dark because then
People start to let go and so what I then did is using uh torch and Camera documented the Shadows that the objects were creating um and not talking about the objects themselves so I asked these custodians to turn off the lights and play around with what happens when you
Just allow the Shadows of the objects to to create a language and the most amazing thing that came out of that was that they started to look at the Shadows like Landscapes they started to talk about the Shadows of the objects that to have more value or no not more value to
Have a different value to the objects themselves the Shadows told a story that was abstract the Shadows told a story that you could not identify on the label and so the fun part that doesn’t matter you can pass to each other from back to front so
Good I can give you another one if you want um so the Shadows themselves held information that was um kind of not on the labels that they weren’t speaking about and what they didn’t know is that I was actually also recording the audio which I can’t play ever again because
They were revealed things that should not be revealed about how these objects got acquisitioned so you know there’s some of these objects that they said oh this shouldn’t be in our collection but because we had to buy this they had to give us this and it’s not a real
Artifact the way we would like to celebrate it’s actually a souvenir you know that’s how they were talking about some objects and I felt sorry for these objects and then other cases they said well this object is actually was stolen from someone and it should be given back
You know so there was a very honest moment in the stor room but these Shadows these very abstract worlds started to become exactly that worlds of the unknown worlds of that which we cannot Define by looking at the object and for me looking back at this in this
Sense of constructing the lecture on world making and sense making it was to say well what do you do with this abstract experience in the dark where you’re looking at shadows and you feel that there’s something in it and for me the obvious thing was to project it up
Large so this painting is probably the size of this wall um so project it up and then paint the Shadows that were captured in the dark and so by Capt painting these Shadows what starts to happen is they become material start becoming other worlds just like the the
Landscapes that you were drawing in the second lecture I gave of the sounds they become these these spaces that that that are some kind of territory and I realized that as you explore these territories you just start adding more and more you start thinking about well
What if I go into this landscape what if I add another layer so then you add another layer what if I add another layer so you had another layer and eventually it becomes completely abstract and the and the thing which was so defined becomes abstracted and for me
There’s something so nice because that means that I’m now sucked into a complete landscape which is actually a series of Shadows of objects that are have nothing to do with landscape but they embody some kind of meaning so as an artist that I think is my task in
Creating unknown worlds and spaces like that um and then in the classic sense of the word you have to exhibit these things otherwise they make no sense apparently so then you exhibited them and then you realize that they lose their worldliness this now just becomes an exhibition of paintings it’s lost
That quality of being stuck in the museum even when you make a little installation at the back so this little installation was with flashing lights and created Shadows it becomes a um what do we call it like a a mini version like the mini worlds or a mockup
Of that which you should be experiencing so it’s it’s frustrating for me as an artist because I want to invite everyone into that store room in the in the dark to explore the collection because that’s really the experience of breathing the objects smells of exploring with the
Torch and exploring Africa in a foreign museum is kind of an exciting idea and then when once you put it into an exhibition format you lose all of that and it becomes about showing something and I’m I’m I’m interested in that tension but I don’t always like it so NE
Showing the world making is not always the solution I’m quite self-critical of this installation because I don’t think I think it becomes like a a designed version of the opp of the experience so how does one play between having the actual experiencing and designing it and
So I I thought a lot about what what what what that meant in terms of not showing the real object but just the shadow having the experience and so when I when I was working in Amsterdam on the ship fat Museum which is the the national Maritime Museum they’ve got a
Crazy collection and some of the objects are a bit dubious as well in terms of their Heritage and background but what I did is instead of taking the object I took cutouts so literal just kind of wooden cutouts of the objects and created a set so that the audience can
See the objects not being the real objects but just mimics of the objects and having search lights they would then create Shadows that move across the building in order to reveal what’s inside the building on the facade so as you went past with a boat these these Shadows dance across as the search
Lights move across these objects so replacing that which is the authentic the real the object in the museum with something two-dimensional to create a world little bit like props on a stage when you create little kind of shablon in order to puppet puppets or something in order to replace something that’s
There and so this idea of creating worlds through Replacements through fakes through things that no longer exist is also quite interesting here the the painting becomes a replacement for objects that were lost in Syria during the war there and all the buildings that were completely destroyed and the artifacts
And the souvenirs that were brought no the souvenirs that were brought back from Syria um started to replace the artifacts so it’s no longer the original is no longer part of it so now we’re creating world of fakes because the original had been destroyed so the souvenir suddenly becomes valuable so
Now you put a souvenir in the museum and you say this is a replacement for the original or you put a painting up to say this was once an object that is no longer there but is just a destroyed painting So this question for me of um
What creates a world is it always in the imaginary or can it be a fake item to create that world is is fascinating and Egypt in that sense is a really interesting space to look at so for example um Queen etii is this bust um that sits in the Berlin Museum so in
Berlin in the museum there’s a bust in a big room you can go there and you can look at it and you can Marvel at this beautiful sculpture that’s standing there and this Noya Museum gets thousands millions of visitors to come and see this object and they have it
Sing in Berlin you go to Cairo and there’s markets full of objects all carved selling you the souvenir which is not even in Cairo you go to Berlin to the na Museum gift shop and there is a 3D printed version of a scan 3D scan of the original that
You can buy this is the one from the gift shop in Berlin this is the one from Cairo Market which one is more authentic the one that’s 3D scanned and then 3D printed in Berlin or the one that’s carved by an Egyptian man on the side of
The road in Cairo and sold to me as a tourist they both replacements for the original because the original is you’re not even allowed to photograph when you come with your camera like this and you walk past like I did the security goes kind of foral okay fine you know it
Doesn’t even belong to you but you don’t let me take a picture so it makes me angry anyway so so my so what’s been created are worlds within worlds so the replacement world is such an interesting thing what what’s the the original gets replaced it creates an environment
Creates a context I just thought I’d share with you also because I’ve got the video here this is John Roma telling me this house once belonged to a greatek merchant a thief said who took many things away from John Roma made a series of documentaries about
The what what what he I’m going to explain it to you uh the the the rape of Egypt the fact that all these objects have were taken away the plundering and the and the extraction of all these objects and where they sit and very critical um um stance an incredible
Egyptologist that that was very much frowned upon by the museums because of his strong stand against this this pillaging of Egypt and then the Counterpoint is well if they didn’t pillage and the objects weren’t sitting in some European Museum then maybe nothing would be left and so so there’s
This debate but what I why I’m showing you this is um I became fascinated by these numbers that are written handwritten on all of the objects in the Cairo Museum in Egypt as obviously the egyptologists um and the archaeologists write codes onto the objects so they’ve got some kind of Western numeral almost
Like a tattoo or a stamp or a prison stamp and these objects stand in the museum with their prison stamp telling people what the number they are and so when you go into Museum like that you start realizing that that is again is not even a world that’s created by those
That made these sculptures for a reason but it’s created by the museum to tell you about how great they are that they collected these objects and for me that is such an interesting twist you know we’re creating worlds to show off how good we are at collecting other people’s
Things and I find that this this this game is one that that that we do as artists anyway but sometimes it’s nice for the audience to do it too so sticking with the with the Egyptian theme in the Roma and pet museum in hildesheim in Germany I took a group of
Um visitors participants students and artists and it was a whole group of people and we walked through the museum and we filmed the collection so we had the museum turn off the light and we ex filmed the exhibits so not the stor rooms but the exhibit playing with light
And creating shadows and then we projected that onto the outside of the building and the film that we projected was actually quite a became quite a poetic Journey um through through the exhibition where the Shadows completely transformed the building once it was projected unfortunately I don’t have a
Film of the projection on the building which is really stupid but um this was the film that was then projected on the outside very subtle soft Shadows kind of moving around um some some playful moments the sound piece we then also made in a workshop together and what was really
Beautiful for me it became a replacement so if the museum disappeared tomorrow because all the objects had to be given back to where they came from maybe the shadow landscape that we’ve created could be a nice replacement so you could just have an empty museum with a
Projection on the outside of the objects that were once in the museum I love that idea you know create a world where the object becomes completely invisible it disappears it’s no longer important all that’s important is the abstraction of the Shadows that it created and the stories
That that were told and there are moments in this where you can actually recognize what it is there are moments where it just looks like pure landscape like this and then there are moments where you might be able to recognize an object or so um you know like this this
Video is the project is not very good here but um let’s see if I can find some there some of these objects one might recognize if one knows what they are there’s something that looks like a a dog figure or cat figure um and so there those are definitely Egyptian figures
Some sort yeah and so so you start making mental connections to some of these objects that could have been in the museum um and in my mind might might not be there forever um obviously sound is a very strong component to this but we’re not
Going to worry about that now but it was about collectively also figuring out what sound these objects would make and we we we went online and we did a interesting mix of Sound Collections to see what would happen uh what this landscape could be like and then there’s some interesting
Cross references so for example that bull and this bull from the Syrian artifact facts that have that been destroyed in in in the war started to are quite interesting connections so that you start realizing that sometimes these worlds have formal languages in their Shadows that that um remind one of
The other and so you start connecting worlds but um trying to make sense of One’s Own World is even more complex so um I’m born I’m born to Austrian parents living in South Africa born in South Africa and and grown growing up there um I have a relationship to place to
Context but I’m migrant just like everyone else on that land I’m I’m brought in somehow a considerate home but my connection to artifacts from the continent are very complex because obviously there’s a colonial history there’s an identity history there’s a question of positioning oneself in relation to these objects and so I often
Contemplate and question what is the story that is not being told what is the story or the world that I do not understand and what is the one that I want to create I’ve shown you by the Shadows the worlds that I could create the worlds that I like to play with
Around the unknown but what becomes really interesting when you start asking people who you think should understand that world to think about it so I invited three poets uh leang Mas Prophet JD um and manalat to come and examine these objects in the in the museum in Johannesburg and the vvr
Museum um and this contemporary this collection of art in this Art Museum um is in storage and for this exhibition we had brought out objects of divination and these objects were presented to The Poets and I filmed them talking about these objects and then created an installation with them with um you know
Projected on top of the objects their their Shadows of talk talking about it so that it becomes this layering again creating another world but what was really interesting for me is as you walk through the installation you’ve got these sound showers where the poets are responding with voice voices and so what
I’ve done here is I’ve compiled the voices and layered them as you would hear it in the installation I’ll just play you a small clip of this Your So each one of them had a dialogue with the objects trying to understand what they are and I realized my assumption just because there’s some kind of um uh cultural relationship between where the objects come from from the ancestors of this tribe of people and the people that that that that were
Holding the object it didn’t mean that they could necessarily understand what it was about either and I loved that idea that in that translation and my assumption came a complete chaos of what you’re hearing just this layering of voices that actually make you realize that they too have to create worlds to
Make sense of that which is supposedly significant culturally to them it’s probably the same as if you come across a an object from your grandfather’s generation and say well now do I really understand it if I hadn’t been told by my grandfather about this thing or you know what is what is
The symbolic relationship how deep does the the oral history go is it documented have I read up on it and so these these opportunities for creating this this this I guess Lost in Translation moment where you try to explain something but you cannot because it’s been that
Meaning has been lost to you is quite nice and this search for that which one doesn’t know is inside becomes really important and as you know from the other lectures my passion of drawing is really part of that and so often like this is
In a in the museum sto rooms I go and I imagine what could be inside this these boxes because we always see boxes standing around a museum dra store rooms but we don’t know what’s inside so I imagine the Shadows from the artifacts and the objects and so in some poor
Museum stor room the there there a whole range of containers that I’ve just Guerilla action painted what could be inside them creating the imaginary of what we cannot see but what is inside and I think that which we cannot see but what is inside becomes a important thing
To think about when you trying to tell the untold stories when you’re trying to document and play with capturing what happens every day um we we write we draw we sketch I mean you’re all sketching at the moment on some piece of paper with little notes
Um and I feel it’s really important that one doesn’t necessarily interpret those drawings always but it allows them to be what they are so this journal of mine of a monthong journey in West Africa is something that only I and maybe one or two people that were with me would be
Able to interpret and understand that’s the Red Tractor by the way interesting I could now now you see now we made a link there’s the Red Tractor in the landscape destroying the landscape um which was a sketch that I made while I was thinking about the space and
So thinking and drawing creating worlds in by by creating a narrative for yourself becomes a really interesting tool to come back to and I can see so many little worlds and installations I want to make from this I want to recreate this scene one day in in a in a
Work I want to play with some of the sketches that I made to make them into big paintings or into drawings or installations and it’s that act of of capturing that’s really important and so one collects and collects books um these are some of the journals that’s why
Again this is such an important format for me because they usually become constantina journals that that capture something that that are about finding the Earth finding the land drawing with the land capturing it and tearing the paper building with it um tricks that we
All play with I think we we all had the opportunity at some point or another to to take a piece of ground and just rub it into the piece of paper and see what happens but by doing that that piece piece of paper has become the set for
Something else and for me is so interesting because we put ourselves into that every time we look at it so it’s no different from creating the the creating of a set in this case is no different from actually building a set so for example when I’m uh when I was
Inspired in a in a in a part of irand with with a collaborator of mine and now we were talking about the land Etc and you start yeah just quickly opening a book and start drawing and creating something and then seeing what happens when you place it into that landscape
And how it captures an emotion a feeling um a reference for you you know these these These sketchbooks are sketchbooks they ideas their gestures by no means are they final artworks or anything like that but they are little worlds that are created that are representations for the big world so they become like
Windows every time I open that book it’s stepping into that landscape even though the landscape can never be there or I can’t be be there and I think that’s a really important thing it’s also about this is the same book just on the other
Side I found this pile of of uh here we go um I found this pile of uh tires and I realized that um the same landscape which is so beautiful and green at the same time is suffering from something else and um and so I turned the book
Around and started to draw on it but that relationship again with the object as a representation of that which one feels um is something that helps me emotionally connect back to my work so going back into the studio opening this book I don’t have to look
At the photographs I don’t have to go back and on my phone going when was that when was that when was it I want to see that photo I want to see the video but actually because I got my hands dirty because my my when I finished with this
Particular drawing my hands were full of Ash and and black things and I and I you know did that and obviously then my jeans were full and it was and it smelled funny and it was just the way it was and that I’ll never forget and that
Helps me connect emotionally to my own work again so it’s that recreating the little world through the senses by actually making things physically in a space and so bringing it closer to here I just wanted to share with you um when I went to this wonderful mine and
Uh yeah it was a moment where I thought let me draw into a book and see what happens let me collect some objects and place them onto that book let me see what happens with with the coal I have no idea what’s going to happen to the
Book I’ve got no idea what’s going to happen next in terms of the thinking around this but it was me trying to connect with a face and while I have billion photographs of this it’s so nice to have an image and an Evidence of of the actual Act of making because
Sometimes it’s nice to know that you were there so you can say look I was there and I made a drawing but I I get nothing from this Photograph I get everything and I forgot the book at home I wanted to bring it I’m sorry I get
Everything from that book that I made you know um and so I think it’s it’s these these these worlds we create within the covers of our sketchbooks or within the we don’t all sketch I mean it could be in the cover of your laptop when if you’re typing stories it’s it’s
Inside the box there are worlds inside the cover they are worlds inside the folds inside the creases inside these these elements they are Landscapes and so there’s something really valuable about again the scale of the relationship of us as artists being able to scale it down so that’s it’s
Only this big and I can put in my pocket and it’s a world in my pocket and I’m going to hold on to it there’s another side to it though and that’s because um sometimes you can’t hold on to it and opportunities arise so while I’m drawing
Um I also as you can see it’s a very landscape orientated work a lot of my work is very much about landscape and context and um I get fascinated when you look in Google as as you know from previous work from above the drawings in the landscape that exist so this for
Example is in the north of of South Africa in Limpopo on the borner to Botswana and this beautiful large natural territory you’ve got these drawings of Landscapes of spaces of occupation of lines that Define spaces and territories because farmers put up their farms and so you can see as we’re
Zooming in um you know these these lines might move from straight lines to more squiggly lines but they’re still like drawings that that someone made at some point consciously or unconsciously but someone actually created these farmlands and put fences around them and I was very fortunate
Because um a uh a friend of mine bought a whole lot of those Farms which is so nice and turn it into an e is turning it into an Eco farm so into a kind of biologically kind of support a farm with all the um wild animals that that should roam the land
And um what’s so fascinating what they do when they um when when when they take the fences down when they buy the Farms that are next to each other which were used for cattle and things like that and they want to turn into uh space for wildlife
So here you see how the territory is divided by these fences and these roads on either side and these pieces of metal that are put against the fence to to scare the big animals away so they don’t destroy the fence and then electric fencing there to also get the animals
That want to knock over the fence to stay away so it’s a very kind of Hardcore division of space and ownership and what’s happening is as they’re buying these Farms they are getting rid of these fences so you can start seeing there this leftover poles standing
Around in the landscape and for me that was so amazing he was actually world making this Eco Farm um and and and playing with redesigning in order to try and rehabilitate the land so from a big scale zooming out he was kind of doing what I was doing in my little book he
Was taking the pages and he was flattening it out and trying to rub out the lines you can’t rub those lines out they’re forever there but what is really important and really interesting for me is the like when you rub something out with the Eraser you always get the
Little pieces that are left on your paper I kind of felt he was rubbing out the fences but what was left was the fence itself so the fence itself on the landscape became like this little Flex if you were to zoom out and what that is
It’s these big round balls of fence so what they do is they go with them with a big truck and they roll the fences up and then they left with these big things of wire and they they’re not valuable enough to sell but they are um they they
They problem bless you they’re a problem in the landscape you know and so we carved out a piece of land and and a drawing in the landscape and there you see me doing a study and being very important about making art in the landscape this is all work in progress
Um but what it is is it’s it’s a very large area which has now got there it is oh there’s the there it is again so we we drew this we we we we made an extra drawing in the landscape and all along in this in this area we’ve placed these
Bowls of wire this was about six years ago yeah even longer and so so laying all around here these bowls of wire and every year I go back and I watch what’s happening to these bowls of wire and it’s amazing how there little worlds are happening inside these bowls of wire
This it’s it’s starting to get occupied it’s starting to become a home for little creatures it’s starting to become overgrown by plants it’s become this incredible place where you think it’s a junkyard it’s actually become an incredible place of of material life of some sort and nature doesn’t give a
Nature just carries on and is deconstructing all of this metal in its own way and taking ownership of it and the best part of that journey is that these pieces of metal I showed you earlier that are hanging on the fence they’re different shapes um only um
End of last year when I was back there I collected these pieces of metal and I laid them together on the floor and I realized there’s this beautiful map and this beautiful drawing that nature is making for me so these are just the textures and the and the and the
Weathering of this of these Metal Sheets that have now been lying there for seven years or something like that in that in that in that landscape that um that are now becoming little canvases in themselves and are becoming these drawings are becoming these memories so the only thing I’ve taken from this
Whole project which exists in somewhere in a tiny little place in Limpopo hidden away in the bush in in South Africa are these um nine pieces of metal that sit in my studio in Vienna and I just don’t know what to do with them but they hold
For me that whole world of these weird things and these and these and these separation Landscapes and this changing of the land and everything and it holds all of that experience just in some some rusty piece of metal and I think that’s so valuable to understand what that does
As it opens up one’s inspiration so if I feel like I need to do something I just going to run my hand over that and I can feel it and I and I I just kind of embibe the relationship with with with the with the with that space and I think
That’s how we transport ourselves creatively in the studio into another place by having these things around us what is interesting is that that same site where I also where you saw me walking around doing some funny drawings is also one of the favorite places for
The Lions to hang out in the farm now that it’s all open they’ve brought in lions and there’s elephants there’s a beautiful Farm now it’s a complete ecobalance system um but this for whatever reason is a place that’s popular for Lions so when I was there
Last year I kind of forgot about that and I was busy doing this thing and the guy that was holding the camera kept on like moving away and I said come come we’re going further and he said no but there are lions here and there’s something so interesting about knowing
That the that that you’re in the kind of complete foreign environment and and and worried about it but the other thing that you meet along the way and I don’t know why that slide is not here because I think it’s more important than what I’m showing you right now I’m just going
To jump to this slide um what you meet right now um while you’re doing that and this comes from the same place is the the unfamiliar collaborator the collaborator you don’t expect and that’s where it gets magical you realize there’s some creature making a world it doesn’t get
More literal than that this comes back to the round Globe you this dung beetle finds dung lays it rolls it lays its eggs in the dung and rolls them until it becomes this cocoon and then rolls it through the mud till it gets another layer and creates this beautiful ball
That then holds life and becomes a whole another ecosystem of of life and the dung feeds the little the little creatures that grow inside and then they break out and then it just becomes a cycle of life and this beautiful metaphor and so while this creature is making this beautiful dung ball I’m
Fortunate enough to find one so this is it’s quite big and it’s heavy it’s like again an artifact I had to take with me you know I smuggled it into Australia No One lets you take that with you anyway so it’s literally as that’s
Why I can say that um so so um finding this thing and and just smelling it and being inside it and kind of just putting my nose into it like this and just smelling what what the the the place smells like what it feels like it’s an incredible Nostalgia to something that
We that we want it’s a thing that teleports us into that space it’s like eating that food that someone made when you were somewhere and then suddenly you like your all your senses go crazy and you go you know I could be there wherever it was and it’s that magic that
I think kind of this world making concept really holds holds for me it’s it’s creating conditions that reposition you and and immerse you into another place and for me the collaborator that helped me do that is this little dung beetle and I think that’s interesting because these are unfamiliar
Collaborators we don’t expect these are encounters that we we think you know could never could never really be part of our of our of our journey because there are other moments where it’s forced and it’s not bad forced but it’s forced where you’re finding the unknown collaborators and that comes now to the
Multidisiplinary part in setting up moments where you are actually intentionally clashing disciplines where you’re intentionally clashing um approaches so art meets science meets place is a project I started in in Port Elizabeth in South Africa where art Masters and PhD students and and science masters and PhD students went together into uh the
Natural environment and started to map it according to their knowledge system into their way of understanding the world this is is nothing new we’ve all done this with other scientists and artists but what’s really exciting is when you start walking through a natural habitat and you start having
Conversations about um what it means to see the world from these different ways and then what comes out of it are design languages through conversations between artists and scientists and Engineers um to start designing Bridges based on the leaf that you find you know little things like that that start showing you
That actually this the the the encounter of different disciplin makes it so much richer and this this encountering between Art and Science is as I said something that’s very common but what what I I feel um as an artist makes me really excited by this um approach is
Gaining a kind of different perspective on that which I would assume to be normal so my little Sketchbook is my Sketchbook as my perspective give it to a scientist and allow them to interpret it as something completely different and so born out of that world making of the
Arts and Science becomes what happens when you then take that dung ball for example and you project it onto a planetarium where the scientists are talking about space you know and you start saying well that D ball represents Earth it represents everything that’s wrong with Earth it becomes the earth
That is destroyed it’s becomes the earth that is broken you know the dung ball is actually that which we should be nurturing because it should be holding our kids but actually what we’re doing is we’re leaving it exposed as this piece of um something that that that
Needs to be dealt with and then how do scientists respond to that provocation what do they say when you start representing um Earth in that way and that’s where it starts gets really exciting and so in that I’m going to skip this video in that I want to
Introduce you to a kind of approach that that’s that’s part of the world making and that’s saying finding the worlds outside of the discipline of Art in this case we created something called The Zone which is this collaboration between these four people which is a scientist or biologist and evolution biologist and
A philosopher curator and two artists coming together and saying how can we use cross disciplinary collaboration to define the third space so if there was a space of Science and a space of art what happens if there was a third discipline a space that exists between the two how
Would we Define it can you define it how does it go beyond the Art and Science collaboration into something which is about the lived experience about creating new knowledge systems that have to do with the engagement of both disciplines and learning from both but not replacing
Either all so what if when they were sitting designing the silos saying ah we’re going to have science we’re going to have art they actually designed a third one the space in between and that space in between is not just about you can see there lots of
Examples I just threw up some some images to show the kind of the the cross-section of things it’s not just about making and playing in in in in spaces between artists and scientists and exploring um and that’s what really a large part of it is about you know um uh philosophers
Contemplating uh qu kind of fundamental questions scientists exploring uh how the scientific Pursuit and the artistic Pursuit are at kind of contrast to each other and this is a whole lecture in itself but what’s important for me here in terms of the summary is that it’s
About what happens in my mind when I’ve got philosophers and scientists sitting in my studio when in my studio suddenly there’s a discussion about worldly things that I have got no clue about and they create a bubble in my studio that I can go back into they create a
Philosophical approach to my practice that I would never be able to do and we were very fortunate that Johannes Yer who’s a who’s an evolutionary biologist and philosopher has invited us to be part of this this research project called pushing the boundaries agency Evolution and the dynamic emergence of
Expanding possibilities it’s basic in a summary it looks specifically at what I’m talking about here the theater of or the question of the theater and the world making of how do we engage with the world is the world a machine or an organism up until now the world has been
Treated like that as if it’s machine on the inside we’re trying to solve our problems by finding the next piece of tech the next AI the next piece of algorithm the next piece of object the next Cog you know the next tool to fix it but actually the biologists The
Evolutionary biologists specifically are saying actually there’s an evolution that’s happened to create the world why do we think we can replace Evolution with tech and what does it mean that we treat our world as a machine instead as an organism and so This research is philosophically really fascinating
Because it pulls into question all of these things that we’ve assumed until now in how we solve our problems how we refer to ourselves how we fix our bodies we treat ourselves and our world in the form of machine but what if we actually reconsidered that and what if we
Contemplated that the organic nature of who we are as humans who our world is um can be treated differently and andj and adjusted and I find that a really interesting provocation because it basically means we go back to that dung ball we go back to the thing that that
That nature has shown us Works in a certain way and has a certain Rhythm and while we’re in the midst of This research the philosophers are really contemplating and and and and playing with the the fact the scientist has to protect itself The Sciences can no longer make worlds that are fascinating
And unknown they have to use the language that exists in order to defend their position because they have the power the art world is doing exactly the same thing it has to defend its position in order to maintain its power but when we start talking about disrupting that power by looking at alternative
Possibilities and alternative systems for dealing with world making sense making um you need to break down those silos and you actually have to question The Establishment and how the establishment works and this is where philosophically it’s really exciting so it’s not to say that everything that
Exist is bad but it’s to say what happens if you break that mold a little bit and create many worlds that show the abstract the unknown and so that New Perspective has only come through the dialogue with philosophers and scientists because if I was stuck in my studio by myself I would
Just be making art and drawing more pictures and making more books and everyone would say those are nice books they smell funny because made of some poor animals um done but you know um that’s great but now suddenly a philosopher is saying but wait a minute
The fact that you painted in an animal’s dung and made this book while you were in the midst of this weird territory does that not evoke a different way of sense making about the world that you live in and now the philosophers is reflecting on that and thinking about it
Within the context of the research I obviously didn’t paint with dong it was just a reference but you know what I mean um so what I thought to to end off the session I’m going to show you one film it’s not very long I’ve cut it up into
Segments but why I want to show it to you is it was just it was a theater piece that was performed a month ago in Johannesburg um it’s a collaboration between um a whole uh group of people Mark Flashman uh and no myi and um Jenny who
You see in the middle there ra Nick and and um it was it’s the piece is called this death here and it holds um this question of daus the father of Icarus who becomes the inventor the genius that uses the mechanical tools that he has to his disposal to make the
Wings to for Icarus to be able to fly into the Sun or towards the Sun so he’s the one that believes he’s got the solution for the world and as a little bit of a play on where we are in today’s time this idea that we create worlds
Using machine we create worlds using using technology and we think that that’s the solution what’s so beautiful about this piece in today’s um presentation for me is that it’s it’s one way of um reinterpreting the machine and what happens so just so you understand what the film is it’s it’s a
Few minutes long but it’s uh Snippets from the performance uh overlaid with the drawings that I did live projected behind the performance so so this is a live drawing tool where I’m actually drawing in response to the space some of it is pre-programmed but most of it is
Live and then the performers perform well obviously I wasn’t unfortunately I wasn’t there for the performance so that live drawing was replaced with the recording but it was done in context of the rehearsals um and the making and so what I want to urge now while you uh the
Beginning you can watch and then the sound will take over I would like for you now that you made little Landscapes you’re going to take one of these little uh cards and make a little flag for yourself that we’re going to put in front of your Exquisite corpse landscape
Um uh just I don’t know why I just think it’ be nice and on that flag I want you to express something about world making it’s a flag that represents your world or the world that you want to make um as a little game so um there are there are
Sticks as well but you can put them in afterwards but uh yeah just take one and pass on if you want to do them every person everyone take one and and pass on here yeah I’ll just give you the packet okay so behind you they need so so the idea
Is just for now just draw onto just draw onto the flag your your world concept your world making your storytelling anything you want in relation maybe to what you’ve drawn on the paper I don’t know and then we’ll make little flags of it but do watch a little bit this video
But I want you to be inspired also by the sounds and The rhythms because the sounds and The rhythms were specifically composed by noo into this incredible space um that talks about this very complexity that we exist in the space between the two so here is this death
Here we are we are we are this is our [Applause] story and and Fe join them together with and waxs until they resemble bird wings he can The [Applause] Now I Huah I So The In the face of death Is So the um the Journey of this last world that you saw right at the end was uh this idea that once we come to a point in our world where we realize that even eor is flying too close to the sun falling down and dying is not necessarily going to heal
That which we have created given the condition that we leave our world in if we carry on treating it this way it was more about what is the imaginary world that we create from that and so once it all fuses together and you see that table with where eus had fallen and the
The gods come and lament and sit around stand around the table and kind of contemplate what happens next you know a world creates itself and I think in terms of future visions that is really where we are the strongest creatively we are the visioners of the new world and I
Don’t think we should be naive enough to think we could do that alone and so I think that dialogue with those that are thinking in that way that are researching in that way that are making in that way like the biologists the philosophers um the parents I guess even
You know whoever is in that space of trying to think about your future and about the the way it could go forward is your collaborator in that sense and so whether it’s a dung beetle or um the philosopher in your studio I think it just becomes an interesting space to be
In this world this world making and obviously the other really important person in world making is a person sitting next to you because we just made world so let’s bring the things that you’ve made forward and let’s put them together on the table here like we always do and I’ve made little I’ve
Little stands for our flags so let’s bring them here and let’s set up you can stick your flag into these bases and set up your world behind it like a backdrop to your flags so oh wow look at that so let’s stand them like this and then we pop the little Flags in
Front so while we’re doing that are there any questions well are there any comments are there any observations any concerns any wow that’s bright did that all make sense so use power use Force you can do it yeah so let’s let’s add the let’s let’s kind of create an a continuous one
See what happens fantastic if they all stand great love let’s move it over yeah you want to add yours here yes that’s the best part is if you’re can laugh about it afterwards I mean there we go it’s so what’s what starts to get really nice
I’m going to glue these together so that we’ve got a kind of an ongoing book at the end of your journey so so I know this was a little bit of a kind of weird thing to be doing while I’m talking and you’re listening and you’re playing and whatever but but
It’s this automatic drawing it’s this uncertainty about why why am I doing this what am I doing around world making what what is this about that hopefully gives you insight into into your own thing I think this is fantastic it’s like a so what we should
Do now is we should cut them up and then jumble them up and put them back together um oh these are great yeah I mean how many of you are World makers do you think show of hands in your Studios yeah I think so thank you I
Wanted that answer I want everyone say me obviously I mean it’s it’s so interesting because when I have this conversation with curators so we had a a workshop with curators in in Paris now in in a museum where we spoke about world making in the display um of the
Collection you know what what does it mean and um that’s why I was changing a few things when when when after that after that uh meeting last week and was just about how we think it’s always someone else’s job to create our worlds for us and it’s so interesting even the
Curators said yes well you know we do it for the audience in this case is a very classical Museum you know we do it for the audience from small to old and so they are the ones that give us the perspective on the world that we create
For them as opposed to well let’s go completely crazy and then let’s pull them in in in certain ways you it was an interesting debate and so it’s not always about just uh you have to um assume that someone else makes it for you but you have to be making it
Yourself I think in this world we need to travel to another world exactly that’s a nice way of putting it yes yeah you actually have to take that step into the other world yeah yeah yeah your looks so fantastic have you got a picture of everyone just standing
Here like this looking it’s so nice judging the world exactly it’s like H this one is good this one’s not yeah and it’s it becomes really exciting when you like this last piece I showed when you’re on the stage with actors I mean that was all a piece that was
Developed together the the vocalists the composer playing live with his electronic things and his piano and the drawing it all happened in this kind of strange stepping into each other’s worlds and then something coming out of it the fact that I don’t understand the language you didn’t understand the
Language and yet it’s inspiring to be working because you understand the essence of what it’s about these are all all really nice things way of discovering yeah yeah good are you all happy are you all feeling fine are you ready to go home into the
Cold I hope the I hope this this gave you something I hope you felt uh it was worth the time that you spent so thank you and um looking forward to next week’s session and I’m got to think about what I’m going to do with this now this is my
Homework I don’t think I can add anything more to that video it’s full make another I think so I might just add something afterwards yeah yeah and then in the last session I’ve kept everything we’ve made in the other session so in the last session we’ll put everything on the table
Together be like exhibition exactly it’ll be another world brilliant so if there’s any other no other questions are you okay if I keep this and I scan them in anyone want to keep their their little things I mean do you does anyone want to say anything about their Flags or about their things
I think they’re so nice I mean some of them wrote so I was just I Love This brilliant whoever wrote this is great thank you I was watching the video you played and forgot