Swansea Council – Scrutiny Performance Panel: Service Improvement, Regeneration & Finance 16 Jan 24

Two from uh Council David Jenkins and Matthew Jones have we any others from anyone no further apologies chair okay right item two is disclosures of personal prejudicial interest which is the normal one uh members no any officers okay then uh item three is the prohibition of whip thoughts and

Declarations party whips uh for explanation for our visitors this is on the um this is on every agenda it is obviously to disclose uh the fact that this is not a uh political meeting this is a fact finding uh meeting this is a a scrutiny panel and as a result there is

A Prohibition of whip votes on this particular panel and all the scrutiny okay then we go on to item four wi is the minutes of the previous meeting which I’m sure everybody has read very diligently okay I’ll go through them Page by page page one page

Two page three on page three we’ve asked a number of questions on the recycling and landfill which we sent out down the letter uh which we hope to have an answer for shortly um and finally on page four okay any questions on that all agreed then we move on to item five

Which is public questions we have none on this particular at this particular meeting oh Rob and then we go on to the budget proposal uh which is item six on the agenda and uh can I welcome the leader who is online if you would like to say a few

Words before uh we ask Mr Ben Smith to go through the actual paperwork thank you chair I I’ll let Mr Smith do his technical first and then obviously I’ll come in later if you need me to thank you okay thank you very much right uh Mr Ben Smith uh thank you chair

And thank you leader uh I’ll be as brief as I can in terms of focusing on the technicals I’m sure there will be a number of questions it goes without saying that this is another year where the settlement was late in the day from Welsh government because there was a

Late Autumn budget statement and I have again certified as I did last year the report is urgent and it went to Cabinet uh last week uh for those that didn’t see the transcript of cabinet I did have to advise cabinet that there were very minor changes to revenue support Grant

Slightly bigger changes to the basic Capital allocation and I’m also aware since last night that there are two further changes from Welsh government so we’re up to four technical changes already they don’t materially change the position in terms of the report that cabinet agreed as the basis for

Consultation but I think it is indicative of the pressure that ministers and officials are under at Welsh government level and I’m sure the same will be true for ourselves uh when it comes to to working through what are going to be challenging budget proposals um whilst um the settlement

Was not surprising in terms of the planning assumptions we had been making in in recent in recent weeks uh frankly it didn’t work particularly well rushing to get it out a day after the settlement last year so we deferred it to early January and pretty much I think every

Council in Wales has done the same uh many met a week before us many met the same week as us and some next week uh I would want to recognize and reflect on the um cander and discipline provided by all Chief officers and cabinet members in working up options there is a danger

That everyone can say it’s all too difficult and impossible these are not pleasant proposals and I’m sure there will be questions and the leader May well want to comment on some of the politics of it um but the reality is we have to set a balanced budget and the

Proposals before you do set out as inoffensive a way as I can think to give you advice to achieve a balanced budget position for next year not saying how difficult it is is I draw your attention to a couple of specific matters in terms of my technicals section 4.3 of the

Report makes clear that although the media focuses on the cuts and the reductions and the savings I equally want to focus on the net ad to budgets and emphasize that part of our problem as is the case with all local authorities is the sheer amount of pressures slushing around in the system

So over the revised medium-term financial plan we have £ 135 million forecast to be needed to be invested into services so e even with the focus on savings there would still be an add in cash terms to directorate budgets of about 80 million over the next four

Years and that is summarized in my revised table one and that’s probably where I’m going to focus most of most of my attention in terms of technical advice this morning um you will be aware that the Welsh government has indicated it had a tight settlement and had

Limited uh choices over what it could deploy money on and chose to effectively reduce all budgets by the NHS the treatment that was special for local government was a an ability to maintain the planning assumption from what was a 2-year deal last year that the average settlement

Would be 3.1% we were not surprised to get 3.8% we anticipated because of some technical changes that we’ be one of the authorities that did better than average but the problem is an awful lot of water has gone under the bridge since that 2-year deal was set last year and that

Is clearly indicated in table one the um Council does not control local government pay nor Teachers Pay there were significant increases in local government pay in the current year finally settled fortunately the authority had anticipated and budgeted for the right amount but we are anticipating up to 5% pay awards for

Both teachers and local government staff for the coming year then potentially dropping down a bit as we expect inflation to drop back down the first major problem area for us is Teachers Pay uh the settlement agreed at a national level with Welsh government and the teaching unions was agreed on about

The 9th of March after we set last year’s budget and to some extent there have been some interim arrangements with temporary grants paid in the current year for teachers pay but we are now in a position where they all drop out so you have a massive compounding effect in

Note 2 of a 2223 Consolidated pay award a 2324 pay award and an expected 2425 pay award all of which will be above that headline average 3.1% increase Grant and above even our 3.8% headline in similar vein the UK government announced welcome substantial increases to the National living wage and and some

Of our obligations in Wales under the real living wage particularly in terms of social care Compact and so there are very substantial pressures on especially social care and a number of our other uh contracted providers plus our own pay bill you’ll recall that in previous years the local government pay awarders

Had to been significantly bottom loaded because otherwise local government itself faced struggling to be a national living wage employer and of course aspired to be better than a real living wage employer so those things start to really compound in terms of the pressures and why you see a very large

Pressure in 2425 and then it dropping down a little bit in future years in note six I have taken a view that I can trim some of the centrally held inflation pots it did grow significantly in the current year a reminder I grew it to about 5 million

And then turbocharged it with 15 million worth of energy oneoff support that was never going to be sustainable and linked to that and which makes the process complicated I have to reverse out all of the one-off use of reserves that were propping up our own energy costs in the

Current year and schools energy costs and that is one of the fundamental SE uh secondary problems we have in that inflation levels at headline rate may be dropping but they haven’t undone the trebling of energy costs that this Authority and all other authorities have faced across the UK so we have to

Reverse out that note 7 reminds you that there is a borrowing facility at the moment where I’ve indicated that rates are not advantageous and because we secured substantial borrowing at below 2% I am continuing the strategy revising Council to defer any new external borrowing until the end of the

Medium-term financial plan but I wanted to provide for it in stepped increases rather than it all all just suddenly Pile in at the end year allbe it is is likely that we will do that final commitment of external borrowing right at the end of the medium-term financial plan because interest rates at the

Moment are not advantageous enough for me to give officer advice to suggest that you should um externalize any more debt at the moment um you will be aware as we’ve discussed at this panel for a number of years that because we were fortuitously able to secure low interest rates and

Have some slippage on our Capital program that I have routinely been reporting a significant in-year underspend on Capital financing and to help balance technically the overall budget I have given officer advice that recommends that some of that be drawn down oneof in 2425 because you will be aware those um

Net interest savings are temporary only notate again we have had major discussions over the years about the use of the capital Equalization reserve and I have needed to advise that some of it is drawn in the current coming forthcoming year with the bulk of it being drawn in 2728 to neutral the point

At which we will look to potentially externalize that 50 million worth of um external new borrowing to be decided at a time when rates are advantageous the secondary Note 8 is importantance that is a a major factor in terms of the position and the political and officer

Advice given to schools um schools will be under undoubted pressure in the coming year as they will be in all authorities and the suggestion is that we take the uh ICT Hub re Reserve in full and offer it in the mix one off to schools I have had to give strong

Officer advice to cabinet and the same to the school budget Forum emphasizing the one-off nature of this and it is designed to give schools a good chance to set budgets for next year but clearly everyone understands the cliff Edge effect that comes the following year the

Rest of the the table sets out the things you would be more used to seeing in terms of expectations around pressures on individual services and the demography that we Face uh it indicates how we’ve deployed that one-off deployment to schools it continues the commitment to build some additional

Money into social care over the medium-term financial plan because that is where demography and pressures are are against us as they are all authorities and the other matter I draw your attention to in table uh in the table is note 14 the contingency fund has routinely in recent years been

Running at about3 million it was increased to 5 million in the current year and I have again given officer advice that I’m satisfied that it is reasonable to draw it back down to that broadly 3 million level for next year’s budget um to try and get a balance right

Between putting as much into Services as possible um whilst uh buying some time as we see what happens as the uh National picture settles down there is a another budget due in March Welsh government’s budget consultation is live until literally end of February and they will not be making decisions in the seni

Until March so it probably means it’s another funny old year I keep saying that every time I turn up to cabinet or or or committee these days but what does that mean when you take a step back and look at the bottom of the page it means

My officer advice does not change from The View I gave to council which was any service that legitimately set out spending pressures of2 I felt as an officer probably we could afford a pound and that is reflected in that table 50 million pounds worth of pressures £25

Million worth of net funding £25 Million worth of savings this time fully equally shared the pain with schools which is set out later on in the table it is a difficult settlement I’m sure the leader will want to comment and others will comment accordingly you would have to be

On a different planet to not be aware that every Authority in the land in the UK is struggling with the the level of funding um and we remain in a position where our balance sheet position is strong our earmarked reserves are really really strong and it is appropriate that

There is use of those in extremist to to buy some time to work through uh what the overall budget picture means but it is also the case that it is not sustainable in the longer term and I also continue to advise that General reserves are at the lowest that I am

Satisfied with they’ve been 10 million now for many many years our budget continues to grow and it is reasonable to be low on those if e mar reserves are high but we are in a position where we’re having to do quite a lot of chopping and changing I’m having to give

Officer advice to support drawing from reserves for slightly different purposes for which they were first intended so you’re seeing some early draw from Capital Equalization Reserve you’re seeing some of it being used to defer borrowing to later years you are seeing the school’s ICT Hub infrastructure Reserve being recommended to be drawn in

Full immediately to help amarate pressures in schools that should give you a clear clear signal that there are real pressures in the system for this Authority as there are in all authorities but it is designed to ultimately boil it down to a budget that enables schools collectively compared to

Schools probably in most other authorities to set budgets that have a chance of balancing and not perilously reducing their overall levels of reserves our schools remain not the highest per capita but joint highest in Wales in terms of opening reserves the distribution is is is variable between

Schools and many of you will be Governors on governing bodies if not all of you and you will be concerned for the pressures that individual schools are under I will continue to be concerned about the pace and scale of draw from earmarked reserves and and the amount of

Things that we’re having to do temporarily taking some balanced risks between reducing some of the central pots to maximize the amount that can go into Frontline services and ultimately reduce down the number of posts at risk to the lowest possible uh number has set out in the

Report um it it it means it’s at an officer level it’s as inoffensive as I can make it with the resources that have been made available to this Council and I’m sure a very similar pattern and discussion is happening in every Authority uh we have deliberately not as

I gave advice to C cabinet not set out a specific headline grabbing number on council tax many authorities have the Press have inquired uh I give continue to my advice which is my planning assumption over the medium-term plan is an average of five in an average year

With a range of 3 to seven and those planning assumptions remain valid as far as I am concerned but I hasten no decisions have been taken yet because to some extent there is a live Welsh government budget consultation there is a UK government new budget in March and

There are some real concerns over what may happen to some of the specific Grant proposals at an all whales level and individually in each Authority so we’re trying to keep our options open to some extent but there may be some questions and interest in in those because it’s

The sort of thing that the media and the public want to know but it gives you some steer as to the broad range of proposals that we continue to work within so I think that’s it in terms of the technical advice I need to give at

This stage I more than happy to to to take questions when you get to that but it may well be that the leader wants to to to come in if if and and and and and indicate some of the The Wider bits but I’ll be guided by yourself

Chair thank you very much assist leader thank you chair um and thank the Mr Smith and his team for the work that they’ve done again to to pull together what’s a really challenging uh set of numbers not least because uh we as Mr Smith has said the the settlement from

UK government this year through to Welsh government was just a a mega 305 million pounds that was over a 2-year period um that equates uh to about 165 million a year 169 million a year um we spend more than that on education in Swansea alone

As I’ve said before so to expect uh a national government to support all of its services Health um H Council education and all of those other services on that amount of money is simply unrealistic so it’s inevitable that that’s going to create uh significant pressures there just isn’t

Enough money in the system now uh again we know that there’s a UK government budget due in March March and uh given that we’re in election year we can all hope that there may be uh further goodies produced uh in in London that will have uh a positive impact on Wales

We will see but even if those do come they will be too late for this budget real because we’ll already be forced to make a decision as a council by the time that is uh announced so you know I I still am hopeful as the eternal optimist

That more money will arrive and we will continue to Lobby Welsh government that if new moneyy arrives in Wales we will want a fair share of that in local government to support education and other services um but we we can’t uh base our plans on that at the moment

Because we can only work on the numbers that are announced and as I said they are terrible from UK government at the present time turn the situation in Swansea um if you look through the papers you’ll see we’ve had around uh 15.3 million pounds uh extra this year

Uh in terms of the uh uplift um and of course with within that of course you’ve also got then that we pay the fire service Levy which we anticipate will be well over a million pounds immediately going out the door to fund uh our contribution towards the fire service we

Continue to Lobby Welsh government ministers to remove that Levy from uh the council funding and to treat it as a precept uh as we do for the police because it is diverting money that the taxpayer provides to run services within the council for Education social care and other services into the fire service

I’m not saying the fire service do not deserve to be uh properly funded but it shouldn’t come from within the council’s uh core budget it should be something that’s uh allocated separately outside of local government um so again that we will continue to have to pay that bill

And of course it was uh well over a million pounds last year and we expect it to be well over a million pounds this year so before we even begin on things like council tax you’re looking at around 1% needing to be raised just to

Pay the fire service Levy so it it is a difficult uh position if you look at uh uh the table there in terms of our commitments to education as you know politically we’ve set out um for a number of years now that education Remains Not only our top priority but

Our top funding priority and you’ll see an indicative uh settlement there to schools of some 17 million pounds for this year uh now do the maths that means we’re giving education and schools more than we’re actually receiving from the Welsh government in terms of money in our settlement that inevitably means

That we are making available some of our reserves and part of that is to allocate a specific schools Reserve directly to schools this year to help them um if schools were receiving the fair share of the money that we got from Welsh government um that would be about 33%

That 15 million so they should expect around4 and5 million pound as a fair share they’re actually getting close to 17 million this year uh in terms of funding so nearly o over triple but as Mr Smith said given the pressures in that system given the pay pressures

Which are which are uh largely unfunded given the inflationary pressures and other stuff it still doesn’t meet all the pressures in schools and schools will have to continue to make uh use of their own reserves uh in terms of their budget setting but you know look AC

Cross whales look at the settlements for schools across whales look at what other councils are considering having to do and the position here remains relatively uh more um generous than uh than it does in the rest of Wales and that is a mantra for the rest

Of the budget we haven’t made the final decisions in terms of council tax yet as Mr Smith has said um we know that other councils are Consulting on council tax rates of up to 10% some uh still may go higher than that um we’re certainly not

Looking at 10% in Swansea I can give that Assurance today but as Mr Smith says we work within a range as we do every year in terms of where we think um council tax needs to be set um in terms of uh the uh overall uh service savings

And budget Savings in there again uh what we’ve tried to do this year working uh as a corporate management team uh through the cabinet and director colleagues um is to make sure that we try and focus on areas where we can make a saving but without having an impact on

Jobs or on posts again you will see that in the papers around 20 or so jobs uh posts are at risk uh as part of the changes um that is a relatively low number for a an exercise of this scale uh and again I can assure you that a

Number of those posts are already vacant they are ones where people are not in and what we will do as identified in the papers is to work with heads of service um with unions to try and ensure that people who may be affected by those

Savings um are helped to uh find a new role uh and to migrate uh again if people wish to make use of the early voluntary severance package That Remains live for them as well as an option but again if people want to remain employed

We will do all we can to find them an alternative role within the authority um so I’m I’m confident that we’ll avoid uh compulsory redundancies this year but I cannot give an an absolute guarantee because it comes down to personal choice of the individual um in terms then finally of the

Proposals themselves again you you’ll seen uh councils across Wales going out with a range of uh suggestions for saving money this year from closing libraries to moving to monthly uh refu collections or black bag collections um to discontinuing some of their core services to reducing other services to

Staty Minima um again if you look at our proposals they are largely focused on savings which have those sort of impacts we’re certainly not proposing to close libraries um or reduce uh or cut Services entirely again it’s about uh part of our transformation program trying to refocus some of our services

And uh modernize where we can um but without having detrimental impact on Staffing levels and service levels and certainly not removing services so again try to be as pragmatic and as uh as uh transformational as possible given the challenges we’ve got but you know uh I’ve been leader now uh nine

Years um most of those years have seen austerity budgets you know from uh from UK down we’ve had to live with a regular uh you know challenge of 20 to 25 million having to come out of our budgets every year because uh of the uh funding uh that’s been there um and you

Know this year is no different it’s it’s for me it’s a return to those austerity budgets that we saw from 2010 onwards um we will continue to do what we can to protect uh our services locally but it becomes more and more difficult every year given that you’re working with

Smaller and smaller resources and the pressures because of inflation because of the cost of living because of the energy pressures are simply huge at the moment and that makes it all the more difficult but you know it’s it’s it’s it’s a position that’s probably relatively positive compared to the rest

Of Wales but is still extremely challenging thank you chair thank you Rita um I have councelor Peter black has put questions yeah thank you chck can I just ask I ask couple of questions about table one and mostly I think directed at Ben um first of all I note in terms of

The use of Reserve with the capital Equalization reserve and the other reserves we’re basically taking just under 8.5 million P out of Reserve I’m just wondering what are the other reserves which we’re using to um for for that for that particular purpose Ben so at present the only two reserves I’m

Recommending drawing are the whole of the ICT Reserve in for schools which is that 7 million and the capital Equalization Reserve which is the other million pound I’m not proposing at this stage to draw from any other earmarked reserves you rightly aduce that um that’s about 8 million P draw from

Reserves much lower than the current year where I had to deploy and give officer advice where2 million was drawn from it proposed to be drawn from a mar reserves and we another a discussion about the current year position as the next item Council black okay thank you

Very much on on the contingency I think you said you’re reducing the contingency to 3 million and you’re proposing 2.55 five million going into the budget for next year but you’ve also got just over well nearly two and a half million and three million for successive years so if

The contingency is down to 3 million where does that money come from I’m not understanding the position properly on contingency so again we’re in the fortunate position that contingency is a is is is in in Practical operation a base budgeted contribution to an e mar Reserve which is itself called

Contingency so um prior to this year we had run it down to about providing for 3 million pounds a year in the base it had grown to over five million because of the sheer number of risks we we we Face coming into the current year with the local government pay award unsettled at

The point of which we set the budget with two years worth of teachers pay unsettled settled we did effectively increase contingency to over 5 million so it’s not although it may sound sounds like it could be a one-off item it is actually a base provided for item and

That’s why you see a draw in all four years it effectively means I’m drawing the base uh budgeted contribution to contingency for inye surprises down to around the3 million pound Mark in all years um under the proposal set out on the table pet counts black yeah that that’s I understand that finally the

Last point for now um on the temporary one-off additional funding for schools you’ve Got7 million going in there next year but nothing for subsequent years which obviously we we we can’t set subsequent years budgets at this stage but I’m just wondering does that make that the the cliff even steeper in 25 26

When that extra7 million pounds isn’t available it it it does absolutely and unequivocally and I’ve been very Frank in the advice I’ve given to cabinet and equally Frank in the advice I’ve given to to the school budget Forum if I mean ordinarily my advice would be you take a

Reserve the reserve has got 7, 29,000 in it my preference would be that it’s used for the purpose for which it was created in the first place which is to pay for replacement ICT kit over the next few years all the way through to 2028 2030 but there is undoubtedly otherwise going

To be a funding difficulty one could say crisis for schools as I’m sure will play out in 21 other authorities across Wales and therefore if it’s taken all in one go it does indeed EX exacerbate the cliff Edge the following year there is frankly no other money left in that

Reserve my ordinary advice would be use it for the purpose intended my second set of advice would be well if there’s 7 million in there about 4 and a half million followed by 2 and a half million to get a more gradual Glide path but I think it is indicative of the

Seriousness with which the leader the cabinet member for education and their cabinet colleagues and chief officers and myself wearing the section 151 officer hat felt there was no choice but to in case of emergency break cookie jar immediately it’s it’s it is that serious I mean our schools collectively are in a

Very fortunate position compared to the rest of Welles it may not feel like it individually when you see the school governing bodies um but there are two authorities with 20 million in school’s Reserves at the moment us and Cardiff but when you come on to the SEC uh to

The second and and then my my update on third quarter budget monitoring I do anticipate schools collectively needing to draw about 10 million pound in the current year so they’d be down to 10 frankly without deploying that Reserve in full there would be a real risk that reserves could be significantly close to

Being exhausted in 2425 I think the the response to turbocharge with oneoff money in 2425 does provide funding protection for schools and does um enable them to slow their own draw from reserves but it undoubtedly is a bit of double or quits the following year and I was at grave

Pains to make that clear to to head teachers when I met them with the leader and also at the school budget Forum um that it does undoubtedly exacerbate the position uh it’s not what I would normally Advocate but I think circumstances are so difficult that politicians um headteachers understood

Why it was necessary to to to to allow that to be proposed as one of the funding options I think it will play out quite diffic be and prove to be quite difficult for a number of authori and their schools across whes councelor black think I’ve just realized that that

7 million 29 is actually in in the table twice I haven’t realized it was the same sum yeah because you’ve got it in for use of other reserves and for that so that’s yes I’m get a bit confused about that yeah yeah apologies it’s designed to neutralize it over the medium term so

It is at not but it it shows both the draw from reserves and then the deployment of it all it when when you start getting to very large scale draws from reserves it can make this table very very clunky you have the same with the other item where you see the

Reversal of the previous year’s energy draw from reserves you end up seeing some quite large adjustment figures in there because none of them are affordable in the base and you you know it does make it I do accept difficult to follow the the trail but it is in it’s

It’s both showing the draw from and use of the reason we do that is to show that it is fully neutralized and there’s no money in the base in future years so it further confirms your interpretation which is it creates a cliff Edge for schools in 25 26 okay just one last

Question sorry chair on the but going back to the capital legalization Reserve obviously withd drawing 1.3 million this year but then we’ve got 350 350 and 5. 350 is that 5.35 the actual where we start getting the changes to the the the way we we’ve restructured the the repayment on on

Capital borrowing is that where that kicks in in 2728 at at this stage not quite for the final year um you’re you’re right that there is a tipping Tipping Point and to some extent the MRP Tipping Point has already occurred but as we’ve had discussions I’m sure councelor Jones

Will come in in in a moment I can see he’s indicated what we’ve had on top is the bonus on Capital financing of making 6 s89 million pound a year of the the the benefit of having variable interest rates on deposits versus the secured sub 2% borrowing um the reason it is shown

The way it is is as I’ve indicated and given consistent advice to cabinet and Council um at the moment the Administration is is undertaking additional capital expenditure of up to 50 million for which we have not yet borrowed the money um so I am anticipating needing to defer it until

2728 because I will not want to recommend drawing more money from pwl or other borrowing sources until interest rates are much more advantageous we are not going to repeat 1.8% for 50 years it was a steel deal at the time um but we are not going to go out and borrow pwb

Money at 5 % so at the moment I need a device that indicates that uh the the the 50 million which at 3 and a half% interest rates in MRP would require £3 million pound a year of Revenue costs to cover it so it’s a device for making

Clear the pressures are in in the life of the mtfp and neutralized by a draw from reserves but the advice I consistently given to cinet and council is at some point when that 50 million is externalized there is undoubtedly a cost of new borrowing and it will fall to the

Revenue account decisions will have to be made at the time whether that is by further increases in council tax or by making adjustments elsewhere in Revenue budgets um so it’s it’s it’s turbocharged for that reason Council of black it’s inelegant in one sense but it means I can place on record the

Liability uh that uh the the capital strategy that was agreed by Council has committed this Council to at some point in the future and it’s just designed to work the system to be as advantageous as we can be on interest rates but my strike price I probably will give advice

To cabinet and Council to borrow again externally at anything below 3 and a half% I mean that’s still double what it was at 1.8 we’re not going to repeat that but there is that liability committed to we haven’t yet committed the whole of 50 million worth of new

Additional borrowing but you will be aware of a number of reports that have come through to cabinet and to council committing to individual items which means we are on that sort of path where up to that 50 million facility will be needed and in the very short term I’m

Using the capital Equalization reserve and other cash back reserves to draw down on our internal balances effectively and that’s why have been at Great pains to emphasize that whilst we have enjoyed making 78 million pound a year of Interest savings compared to budget it is temporary because we only

Ever borrowed what we needed to borrow to finance the medium-term capital commitments so it’s um it’s it’s more than just the MRP Tipping Point sorry that’s a very long answer on probably the most technical element of the budget I’m sure councelor Jones will follow up with his own questions in in similar ilk

On that because it’s a it’s a matter that’s been of great great concern to him thanks Ben pasted councelor Jones no I think the leader wish to interrupt yeah Ju Just on the the reserves point that Council black raised I think look um it’s all very well saying that

Education is your top priority and it’s your top funding priority but when you get to rainy days like this you have to come through and protect uh that service and you know as I’ve said it’s yes it is drawing forward the entire uh it reserve and deploying it into schools this year

But you know we’re not doing that in the basis of we have no other reserves uh over the last few years we have tripled the amount of reserves that we hold as an authority so we are very well provisioned and we have a very high um liquidity rating in terms of uh the

Council’s finances so we are in a strong position to deploy reserves so um what what I’m going to be really clear on is I councelor Robert Smith and others were not prepared to keep money in a bank whilst teachers were being fired in schools because there wasn’t enough

Money in the system that’s a political Choice Mr Smith gives us advice as a technical officer and that is absolutely appropriate we decided to deploy the entire reserve on the basis that we wanted to ensure job losses in schools were minimized that uh teachers were there to teach children because children

Don’t get a second chance of that year of Education it’s different to a road scheme or something where you can do it the following year and there’s very little impact really for education kids get one chance so you have to follow through on your commitments uh and

Secondly just to say that is going to be a theme of this budget as I’ve said the reason you you put reserves in place is to prepare for a rainy day and as I said at the cabinet meeting we’re in monsoon season this year because of the scale of

The settlement that’s come to Wales we’ve been absolutely short Changed by UK government as a nation there isn’t enough money in the system so therefore councils like ourselves where we’ve built up sizable reserves have to be prepared to use sensibly some reserves to support services through difficult

Periods yeah thank you black I fully understand the reasoning behind it but can I take that as as a suggestion that you may well find reserves in future years to alleviate the pressure on schools as well absolutely but we’ve been very clear with the uh the head teachers and the schools that that

Reserve was there for a purpose as Mr Smith said which is to replace it in future years it remains now a challenge as to how we replenish that Reserve in order or to deliver that itd it uh refreshment a different way and that will require discussions with schools in

Future years okay can I go on to councelor Jeff johnes yeah thanks chair and uh Mr Smith I wasn’t going to bring up the MRP but uh I’m glad you actually did clarify uh you know that we’ve perhaps gone through the the the good times and now we’re in

The should we say the payback period um as a leader said you know I think we have uh increased our reserves I think we’ve had quite good settlements really over the last couple of years but is really going back to the the funding for schools um I I know I put a question

Into Council for next council with regards to 8 million I was under the impression that there were 8 million was taken from the school Reserve so 23 24 now we’re actually talking here about 24 25 now is that is this 7 million it’s the same as the 8 million we’re actually

Talking about and um it’s coming from the uh um uh Hub it budget uh what effect would it actually have on that budget and if you actually taking it from the school reserves how can you can call it temporary funding for schools so I’m a bit um confused should we say so

So to clarify you’re right it involves multiple years but it is um slightly better than the the the the way you’ve um inferred it so for the avoidance of Doubt schools finished um the 2122 year with 28 million in reserves the 8 million answer to your question schools unequivocally Drew 8 million

Of Reser of their reserves in 2223 reducing collectively our schools reserves to just over 20 million Cardiff and ourselves are the only ones that have got over 20 million in reserves as at the end of March 2023 in the current year 2324 the intelligence I have from my

Officers and schools is that1 million will need to be drawn from schools reserves in 2324 so I anticipate that schools collectively will go from 20 million to 10 million of reserves left at the end of this March 24 The Proposal in front of you and

Which was put in front of cabinet is the ICT Hub Reserve was 7.02 Million set aside by Council not from schools for the purposes of replenishing ICT kit so that is in addition it’s got nothing to do with the 8 million and the 7 million they just look conveniently similar so

The seven million is the council’s money that it set aside to replenish the kit for school’s benefit and has in partnership with head teachers and the school budget Forum suggested it is the right thing to do to in case of emergency break glass fully so that’s the position I anticipate that schools

Would start 2425 with about 10 million pound worth of cumulative reserves now given they’ve drawn 10 million or anticipated to draw 10 million in the current year that’s the main reason for indicating that’s a substantial additional sum of money needs to be available to them but that is not drawn from schools reserves

Itself it is a reserve held for the benefit of schools but crucially was provided in the good times as you rightly alluded to we had three years we were able to put substantial amounts of money into reserves and we prudently put the whole 7 million pounds aside instead

Of trying to save up for it in over 10 years and have it available we put it all aside in one go as the leader has indicated the obligation I have is I still got an obligation under that Grant offer to make sure that additional sums are made available to replenish the kit

In due course but we’ll worry about that in future years so for the avoidance of a doubt it’s the council putting in 7 million of its reserves all be at badged for schools which are fundamentally different to the nature of the reserves held collectively by schools themselves so hope that clarifies the position

Counselor Jones yes very very clear thanks very much leader yeah uh thank you chair just to add additional bit of context to that because uh I when I saw the question that had come in for Council I was a bit perplexed as to where it had come from but absolutely

Unequivocally we have not taken money off schools from their schools reserved and used them within the central Council that is simply untrue um and as Mr Smith has said that that hasn’t happened what we have done in consultation with schools over a number of years now is to

Say that if you look back at 2019 schools reserves were 88.6 million uh they went then to 28 million as Mr Smith said and then during 22 23 they came down to 20 million and that is schools using the reserves because of course schools Can Only Hold reserves over 5%

If they demonstrate that they’ve got us uh um a robust business plan for the use of those reserves because that money is intended to reach pupils and children to support their education it is important that schools reduce their reserves down to a reasonable level around 5% which is

The guidance um in order to make sure that um the money is reaching the children as I’ve said what we’ve been uh uh at it over the last few years as Mr Smith alluded to is that Swansea has been uh the richest uh or one of the richest authorities in terms of schools

Reserves that are being held now that is that is not helpful for uh the children who are in the schools because they’re not seen the benefit of the money but also it’s not helpful for us in discussions with Welsh government because Welsh government will say well

You seem to have lots of money in schools reserves that you’re not deploying so we’ve had a very uh you know grown-up discussion with schools around making sure the money is released on the projects on the investment that’s required for schools so you will expect to see schools reserves continue to

Reduce back down to the guidance level which is around that 8 nine 10 million pounds and that’s what Mr Smith and I have been talking to schools about but can assure uh councelor Jones Council Jeff Jones that no money has been taken from schools for Central purpose

Purposes and as Mr Smith said we set up that it Reserve centrally which has now been deployed in full and we will have to now look at how that is recovered in future years budgets councilor Mary Johns uh thank you chair and sorry I will have to leave just before 11

Because I’ve got another meeting um I’m looking at appendix B starting on page 33 and it goes like all the way through then about the uh savings for each department but as they written there you can’t really tell what’s been looked at I know I asked this probably every year

Um how can we have the papers to show what’s actually underneath it uh you mean if I take the first one on page 33 restructure corporate marketing fine but how did you come to that figure and how are you restructuring the you know there’s the same with Social Services

Education they’re just headlines how can we see all the background papers to understand how uh and who or what it effects because it doesn’t show you anything at all and the public can’t understand it either if you just looked and said restructure digital project management team fine have you got 10 in

There and you’re thinking of going down to four or you know there’s nothing tangible in any of the appendices to be helped follow you thank you leader yeah chair this this is consistent with previous year’s information uh and Council Jones will appreciate that in some areas especially where the sums are

Quite small they relate potentially to changes of a specific post so again it’s important uh for the um the anonymity of the staff and the and the post concerned that we don’t provide a level of detail that identifies an individual within the organization that would be wholly inappropriate and and again just to

Reassure councelor Jones in terms of the restructures if you look through the appendix B you’ll see a number of items that are linked uh and I know the the chair will be aware that we’ve had discussions cross party around the level of support for different functions

Within the council and that’s part of a transformation uh piece of work that touches upon scrutiny governance and audit cabinet Civic office uh corporate management team around the level of support and resourcing that we have across those and we’ve had discussions about making sure that that’s um a

Sensible level of support and an equitable level of support across all of them so again what we didn’t want to do Council Jones I’m sure you’ll appreciate this is to put a level of detail in there that identifies an individual potentially within those sections so again it’s it’s part of a broader scheme

And I know uh certainly the chair and others may be uh in their discussions at different venues will have been made aware of the of the level or the detail of the changes that are going through the transformation program thank you need that councelor Wendy Fitzgerald Wendy you’re on mute sorry it keeps

Flipping back to mute um we’ve heard this morning all about the the difficulties the severe financial difficulties that councils across Wales are in and the that the Welsh government is apparently not getting sufficient monies from Westminster um I I I appreciate that there are real real concerns however when it comes to Joe

Public they’re going to be inevitably faced again with the council tax Rise And Then There are questions well why are we having to pay more council tax when the council has money to Splash out on expensive active travel routes for example unwanted unnecessary and in my w for example just

In my ward 1. 147 almost that amount of money has been spent on an unwanted active travel route now and I think this is where the council has difficulties because how do we as councilors justify if you like a vanity project in the context of the severe financial difficulties

That councils are in and the fact that council tax Rises every year thank you chair thank you I think who’s that um I think will lead the Leer will answer that Gerald may need to go mute again because I think we’re getting feedback thank you lovely um yeah I mean look I I

Know you I know you you so sorry you’re off again thank you that’s great leave it as it is that’s fantastic lovely um no I I know you were a Cabinet member for a period of time so you’ll understand the challenges of of setting budgets and that the fact that there are different

Types of money that councils receive um revenue is is where the pressures are those are the day-to-day bills that councils pay for the running of services the scheme you’re talking about is a grant-funded scheme which is which means that money is only provided for that specific purpose it cannot be moved to

Spend on social care or an education it’s it’s provided for the provision of of uh better cycling and walking routes um but also it’s Capital money it’s one-off money so it’s not again it can’t be used to support uh Revenue budgets so um again it’s it’s one of those uh

Challenges of how government allocates its money ministers rightly elected will decide on post their election um what they will deliver for uh the people of Wales because they were elected as the Welsh government they then offer money to councils to deliver schemes within uh local authorities and and we cannot

Lawfully vary that money to spend it on other things um you know uh what I would say is you know uh when a government gets elected it does things that people like it does things that people don’t like but they are the government and they’ve won the election they’ve got the

Right to spend the money uh Ben I wanted to give technical advice on one other matter given Council fit sheld rightly raised that you know boil it down to the public and trying to understand what the consequences are of decisions made and I will deliberately avoid the politics and focus only on the

Technicals the settlement is the settlement the average is a 3.1% increase in Revenue support Grant the assumptions that Welsh government have made around standard spending assessment for individual functions means that they have made an explicit assumption that council tax at standard spending would need to rise by

6.7% across the whole of whales to stand still now ctss is not an obligation or meant to be an exact guide but it was pitched at the level of September CPI it is indicative of the Welsh government knowing that there is not enough money in the system for local government

Because that assumption is made in the settle to stand still we give you 3.1% on average councils would need to raise ctss by 6.7% um and that’s why you almost get this inevitability of a need whatever you decide on Individual Services to have to regrettably put up counil tax by

More than headline inflation um for the for for balance I would indicate that similar assumptions were made in England around core spending power for individual councils yes there is a cap on um Authority increases in in in England and similar an assumption was made around around 6% in Scotland so I

Think there is an explicit acknowledgement in the system that effectively um at 3% Council taxs are going to have to do more of the heavy lifting and that’s why you’ve got the range of figures that the leader quoted that other authorities are facing I would Echo what he has said on the other

Matter which is our focus at the moment is on our core settlement which is revenue and yes there are a whole raft of things that are capital and a whole raft of things that are subject to specific Grant and it’s something I mentioned in my first lot of technical

Advice one of the things that concerns officers and members is the uncertainty given the lateness of the settlement again that we don’t know what some of these specific grants are going to be for but as the leader has indicated some specific grants may only be spent on

Specific projects and may result in a million pound spent on something that you quite rightly count fit to say well that wouldn’t be a priority for XY member of the public it is one of the unfortunate Natures of specific versus block grants and whilst the whilst local government’s position is

We’d like as much to be in block grant as possible so that we can actually take local choices but I thought it was worth me putting in the mix the the matter around council tax and the planning assumptions that Welsh government and other administrations have made around

The level of C it does go to the core of one of the issues that when it comes to the media and the public all we ever see is talk about reductions and yet an inevitability of council tax increase the system is almost forcing councils into that position not only in Wales but

Across Scotland and England too so I thought it was appropriate for me to draw attention to the assumptions Welsh government has made quite explicitly in its overall settlement acknowledging there ain’t enough money in the system thank you Ben are there any other AMS questions no uh well well can I go

Through a couple of things then first of all on table one Ben uh there’s a a few issues there’s uh on item four note four there’ll be no increase in pension costs this year and next year but there will be in years 26 27 27 28 is that because

Of an Actuarial uh examination or is it something other than that so it is merely an assumption at the moment there will be another trienal revaluation of the pension fund and I have reverted to assuming the broadly 1% increases will resume again you will recall the last triennial revaluation

That resulted in the base position for last year was one of the very fortunate things we were able to do um to offset a number of the pressures so it is designed to be the next trienal revaluation you know we were fully funded at the last revaluation um performance has dipped a

Bit for some councils since then so there will be a new revaluation but it’s a planning assumption and I’ve reverted to my long run planning assump Assumption of a 1% parand and presses but there is no certainty there will be them if we are fully funded again there

May be no increase if we overfunded there may be a reduction if we’re short there will be an increase but I’ve reverted to my longer run planning assumptions on that but you’re absolutely like uh to to assume it’s linked to the next revaluation formally by the

Acty right and the the also applies to item not5 where there’s no increase in the teachers pension cost I’m assuming again that’s an actual Actuarial figure that we’ve been given or an assumption that we’ve that the pension costs are are covered elsewhere so so so that one’s an

Interesting one for two reasons teachers are subjected to a quadrennial revaluation so there will be no quadrennial revaluation in the four-year period but there is a revaluation at the moment and one of the pressures that is sitting in the system is the current teachers pension contribution rate for

Employers is 23.68% % it will rise to 28.6% from the 1 of April it adds A5 Million Pound Pressure into the system um it has been delayed uh by the government act’s department but it’s now confirmed as the rate and sitting in the mix in the Autumn budget statement was

Several billion pounds held back until spring of 2024 so there is a huge slug of money due to fund all schools in England and this is one that definitively does have a bar consequential and we’ll see money come over to the Welsh government and it is referenced in the funding assumption for

Schools where we have assumed we’re getting 5 million in 2425 that’s the reason then it drops out at zero for the following four years because there isn’t another 4 yearly valuation until the next year of the medium-term financial plan the complicating factor is here we are making discussion now I’m making an

Assumption overall it will be broadly neutral and work out AOK but here we are at this point in time with a cost certain falling on schools because it is now cost certain at 5% and I did reflect it in last year’s medium-term financial plan I knew it was coming and it is good

That there is to be a Barnet consequential and good that there is to be funding but it would be nice to know what it is given it’s a very very large sum of money and we do not know whether it will come as block grant or specific

Grant um nor exactly the timing but uh there is a reason why that one’s in there it’s it’s um so I’m confident there’ll be no further Actuarial revaluation affecting teachers over the life of the next mtfp but there is unusually a very large slug of money my assumption is about5 million for schools

In Swansea alone which is currently sitting off in The Ether but he’s coming definitively on the 1 of April um we will know more probably as a result of the March budget um statement by UK government and then it will be a BN at consequence of the Welsh government and

Then there will be a need for the money to come over if I were to Hazard a guess it is most likely to come as a specific grant for 2425 and then going to block grant in 2526 because frankly the UK budget is so relatively late in the day we will

Probably already have just sat in Council and made a decision on what our budget is for 2425 it’s just another one that’s an messy irritant I’m confident overall it will work out all right on the night but I would have preferred given it’s been delayed already a year

To have had some greater cost CER cty and some certainty as to how the money was going to find its way in but this is one given commitments that have been made at the UK and Welsh government level um I would be staggered if this one wasn’t ultimately flowing all the

Way through it’s just at this point in time I don’t know how it’s going to flow and what exactly the figure is going to be but our schools need to budget now and at the moment are factored in that full 5% increase and assumed the money

Is turning up uh in time for first of April but I would have preferred to have known it with certainty thank you uh councelor White you put your hand up is uh is it yes if I could yes please um yes um it relates to energy inflation prices uh page 18.

511 um clearly um the the additional money that of of 4.5 million is going obiously to be transferred to place uh which I believe obviously covers the main front line services that we provide with the public every um look look to have for us and that’s that’s very welcome you know CU

These are the main front my sers you know that out there on a day-to-day basis um And in regards to um the one with schools um how um Mr leader how we sort of um sort of worked out because um we have lots of schools thats are a lot older than

Others um just to what the new ones have been built under the 21st schools program so how will not be calculated I are you able to advise on that either Mr Smith or the leader Mr Smith want to go first perhaps yes so I’ll go first and you’ll have

Noted that it is a oneoff offer for schools again because in the current year I gave schools um I gave advice to technically I gave advice to cabinet which gave Council the the decision- making to give A6 million one off uh to schools there was never any guarantee it

Was going to continue uh rates have come down that we pay on wholesale rates and so my judgment is that £45 million is a reasonable offer at the moment it is fully built in or be on a one-off basis into the schools Quantum uh whereas it was set and held centrally and then

Allocated in year the decision on allocating yet to schools is is a matter for consultation with the school budget forum and and and whether it sits in the formula or without and that’s point which will probably defer to the leader um if it’s in the quantum the majority

Of the quantum is delegated to schools on a formula basis um and that is probably where education colleagues would prefer it to be allocated but the leader and I as you’ve rightly uh referred to council white is our schools are in varying degrees of Energy Efficiency and condition and age and is

Something that may be of some further debate but at the moment for the avoidance of doubt I have put the full Quantum into the school’s delegated budget and I would therefore expect the majority of it to be driven by formula um it is a difference of approach to

Last year where all energy costs were held centrally because we weren’t certain as to the sums and that was about1 Million for ourselves and schools and an offer for third party Partners at the moment it is 4 and a half million to place and 4 and a half million one off

Only to schools and I must emphasize again the one-off nature it was an extension of a one-off offer for a second year to schools but I don’t know if the leader wants to to comment further but I think we all recognize that the that schools are different in

Terms of age structure and uh Energy Efficiency but we are also bound to some extent by um consultation and decisions taken by the school budget forum and the school Finance group as to how schools are funded on a broadly formula basis leader would you like to make a

Brief statement yeah just just to add to Mr Smith said I think uh what councilor white has identified is absolutely right um we know we talking about reserves recently reserves are not held equally across the schools of state and similar as uh as Council white has said uh we

Have different uh level different age of buildings different level of Energy Efficiency in our buildings and therefore different pressures on energy bills and other so it is a discussion we’ve started with education councelor white um we uh first the first challenge was to make sure we could deploy

Sufficient resources to try and help with the pressures in schools the second part the challenge is making sure as best we can that the formula for allocation uh makes sure that the um the the extra additional investment reaches where the pressures are within the schools EST state that is a real

Challenge um it’s not easy because obviously uh schools are not static bodies they are their their pupil numbers change uh you will see different pressures coming in uh year to year so it is a challenge for education education officers to make sure that the money is allocated on the most Equitable

And fair basis and it is a complex system but certainly we’ve raised the the principle of ensuring any extra help goes to where it’s most needed thank you chair yes thank thank you can I go back to the the table of table one um uh on uh note six where you

Have a change in the inflation provision uh where you’ve taken out 1.6 million and then the following year you’ve added in 2.4 million is is that BEC inflation has dropped uh from a figure and you’ve removed that figure and you’ve added it into the schools budget then so I’ve not directly added

Additional money into the schools budget but I remind you that in the current year because of uncertainties I grew the central inflation provision to around5 million and turbo charged it with another1 15 million one off for energy so the energy one being taken out one or

Funded into schools and put in the base for place means that1 15 million drops out in full I have taken a view that by retaining a contingency sum and looking to maximize the amount that goes into all Frontline services not specifically just schools chair um that I could

Safely draw that sum down and still retain a central inflation held pot of over3 million but in line with all previous mtfp assumptions ions I always make an assumption about there being f f future inflation pressures the way we build cash limits these days is that because

The money is so tight other than pay Awards and exceptional cost pressures I routinely build an assumption around central inflation and hold it centrally for deployment in year so that’s the only reason that in future years it goes up I have judiciously given an officer

Advice that it is safe to take some of it in the Cent forthcoming year purely to maximize the amount that is deployed into Services above the line rather than in Bank of Ben’s pot below the line when we come on to the second quarter in due course you will be aware in previous

Years we’ve balanced service pressures above the line by drawing down on Central sums so it’s again a judicious view as to what is safe to take by still retaining a central sum um the the the amount isn’t that large when you think about yes inflation headline inflation

May drop down to a couple of percentage points but one of the real pressures all council’s faces that is simply not the inflation pressure faced particularly in Social care provision when you think about the sector is predominantly low waged and therefore as welcome as it is that National commitments are made to

Increase real living wage national living wage to by 10% there are real pressures built in so you see a mix where we try to build some of it into key pressure points like the commitment to put more money into social care but that’s why it’s an unusual one where you

See future pressures building but also in a couple of cases where I’ve had to say it is reasonable to trim my central pots and maximize the amount that cabinet could recommend for consultation to be spent on Frontline Services well I thought find unusual is that um the

Following year is 2.4 but then it goes up to nearly five so it’s an accumulation okay can I then move on to um where are we now um item 13 which is medium-term financial plan service pressures accepted and new service pressur there is no difference in that is there

Not no effectively not um one one reflects existing assumptions made in the mtfp and we refresh it and going back to councilor Fitzgerald’s point at this early stage of consultan in the same way that there is a limit on the amount of detail that is set out in the medium-term financial planning

Assumptions the specific pressures and who gets what comes in the February March budget setting when one of the appendices appended is the individual cost centers for each area where you can see where the money is flowing through that’s that’s in line with normal practice but you’re right effectively

There’s no distinction between the two it’s just that one lot was already built in and then it’s the refresh of the new lot of pressures that we’ve priced in as we’ve recognized the latest pressures again predominantly in Social care but there are also substantial pressures in Waste Services that I’m aware of and

What we do is we go out and collectively um ask all heads of service to put a whole ra budget proposals forward but for the avoidance of Doubt given how little is in the system in reality any pressures that are accepted ultimately then have to be balanced off by the 25

Million pound savings ask in terms of pro there’s not enough to actually technically fund them they might be accepted but there isn’t enough money to fund all of the demands placed upon the sort of central treasury function as it were chair okay uh can I move on then to

Table for Capital allocation and the rhetoric that comes above it um sorry in 4.10 um the current of future progress clear present time future support if generally cap supported borrowing is likely to be significantly curtailed any different from last year and the year’s PR previous or is this an assumption for

The ongoing Capital allocation so this again is one of those ones that I indicated and gave advice to Cabinet last week the the basic Capital allocation was advised as going up £30,000 on 12 million Welsh government identified an error in their allocation and the good news I was able to advise

Cabinet was that the 30,000 uplift was actually a £61,000 uplift that’s still on a 12 million basic Capal allocation in the core settlement so I still maintain that is very very curtailed when you’ve got inflationary pressures of 10 15 20% on individual schemes that this panel is

Well aware of um and also the core allocation is very very minimal compared to the overall Capital program which includes all of those specific Capital Grant screams like including the active travel items that were talked about previously where there are specific Grant offers often for Millions um and also the council’s own

Choice of heavy lifting in terms of unsupported borrowing and its own Capital program set in the context of a capital program that is routinely closer to 200 million okay it might only spend a 100 million and we’ll come on to that I’m sure when we come to the slippage in

The second and third quarter but it just shows how relatively little is in that basic Capital allocation and whilst um I did caution cabinet to not get too carried away and excited about the figure having doubled it have increased by not ,000 but 61,000 doeses I think

Give clear evidence it is likely to be very very severely constrained and unfortunately it is a planning assumption and I continue to assume it will be very severely constrained going forward the bulk of capital will be specific Grant schemes or decisions made by each Council as to how much it can

Afford to provide from its own borrowing plans and how much it makes and values the trade-off between revenue and capital that becomes much harder as the outlook for the official position on a uk-wide basis in terms of the aut budget statement and therefore the envelope the Welsh government is working

Within that the revenue outlook look looks equally very constrained for a number of years which does make it harder to to to make a decision to put more into Capital but I I remain of the view that Capital will be constrained in terms of support from both UK and Welsh

Government as unfortunately at the moment the Outlook is the same for for for Revenue going forward but there are a number of matters that may change that position I think most commentators including myself do not really believe the credibility of some of the planning assumptions set out at a uk-wide level

But as the leader indicated earlier I can only work with what is officially on the record and assumptions flowing from that and I am therefore taking a view that there is very very constrained Capital support going forward unfortunately okay thank you um the only other thing I do is like d take the

Leader and yourselves uh and and to to to the cabinet as well uh last year we had a change in the budget Pro process whereas at council meeting when we set the budget there was a change in the pre- scrutiny of the budget I hope that

We don’t have that again I hope that we have a chance to scrutinize the budget before the actual budget is set at the council meeting and I hope the leader is listened to that so any sudden changes on the day of the budget are not going

To be appreciated for the fact that that we need to scrutinize the budget to to to follow our own um own standing orders thank you all for that and uh we’ll move on to the next item if that’s okay and the next item is the revenue and capital budget monitoring report quarter 2

2324 uh leader do you wish to say anything on this nothing on this I’ll leave this one to Mr Smith okay uh then Ben so again I will be um relatively brief in terms of my technical advice um the second quarter indicates uh an overspend position an overspend of a

Residual around 7 to8 million pound materially down on the first quarter at nearer to 13 million from Services partly driven by my advice in terms of drawing down Central pots from inflation and contingency um and there is a commitment from cabinet members and chief officers to get back to a fully balanced position

By year end that is incredibly important because everything we’ve just discussed is on the basis that we must rebalance the current year given the relatively low level of General reserves the important table is the appendix which sets out the planning uh assumptions for the the rest of the year

I remind you the budget was set on the basis of a 20 million draw from reserves predominantly to fund the the energy costs and given the level of overspending forecast at second quarter uh the residual amount showing is nearer a 30 million draw from reserves and I

Would add into that that because of the special nature schools reserves as I alluded to earlier I expect up to10 million to be drawn from schools reserves as well it is crucial that directors and C cinet members assist me in rebalancing the position for the authority as a whole for this year

Otherwise it does destabilize the assumptions to be made in the budget going forward we are still in the fortunate position that we have large ear marked reserves and I have given advice as to how to deploy some of them and we were in the fortunate position

That I do had did have some in contingency and in central inflation to deploy against the risks this Council faces you will see in the report I have also made an officer technical assessment as your accounting officer and your statutory adviser that there is a need in accounting terms to make a

Substantial provision in this year I would emphasize no claims have been made uh but the budget monitoring is a forecast of the position at the year end and I have given technical officer advice which I’m pleased cabinet has accepted which has resulted in a very significant provision charged to the

Accounts which has required me to equally advice to redirect the normally assumed underspend on Capital financing and though it therefore it would not be added to Capital Equalization Reserve in the current year there may be some interest in this matter um but um this is only around the accounting technicals

At this stage I am in receipt of Legally privileged advice um and it is also commercially sensitive for the authority and so I may be limited in how much discussion I’m able to give today but it is right and proper that it is recognized in the uh assumed budgetary

Position uh we have been in the fortunate position the technical advice I’ve given in the past which has resulted in an add of over1 million P to reserves was gratefully received by Council the technical advice I gave which enabled Millions to be saved each year on Capital financing was gratefully

Received by Council and the advice to set up the capital Equalization Reserve was gratefully received by Council all of which have added to our amend Firepower and our protection and insulation from some of the ravages that are facing all public bodies and local authorities at the moment there are

Occasions when I have to give technical advice that goes the other way this report clearly identifies one of those in terms of a technical provision having been made it is my view that that will still need to be made in the current year and that is why it is reflected on

The public record in public discussion but I must emphasize that elements of it are likely to be prejudicial and Commercial Al sensitive and it may be more appropriate for discussion and debate at another time on those I don’t wish to Cil the debate on it but it is

Right and appropriate I recognize that there is a trade-off between the public interest recognizing the overall pressures and what is at the moment an accounting technicality only what it means is some of the earmarked reserves have been reclassified uh for in in anticipation of year end into a

Provision um it makes it harder to deploy them because it’s provided for specific purpose but to all other intents of purposes whether it was a provision or an earmarked reserve it is fully cash backed and is available in the short term to assist the Council in protecting its overall interests as we

Go through a very very difficult point in time that is the main reason for driving us to a position where uh we are overspent at this point in time you have been used to me coming and Reporting an overall underspend not withstanding service overspends enough Central pots

To result in an overall underspend at the moment at second quarter there is a clear overspend which must be fully rebalanced I have individual assurances from my fellow directors and Recovery plans that they are making inroads to that I do anticipate third quarter which crucially will be considered by cabinet

At the same time as it considers its more detailed proposals to council for setting the budget that there will be further inroads however it is extremely unlikely that they will be fully covered at the end of February and I do expect to have to go all the way through to the

End of the year to try and rebalance the position um so there is some material items in there which are of a technical nature driven by accounting standards and protocols at this stage um which I have factored in and my strong officer advice to cabinet and ultimately to

Council as a whole is whilst they’re not nicing to have to put in in terms of assumptions about what we might need to spend um some sometime you can’t just have just the good times sometimes you have to have some bad times and there is an assumption about a specific cost in

There that may at some Future Point come and it is indicative of me not being prepared to take any risks whatsoever with the Authority’s finances by being prudent and setting it aside now we remain adequately provisioned and reserved for all foreseeable risks for the medium term and it is that as a

Whole that has enabled me to strike a relatively C tone in terms of the advice I’ve given today on the preceding item and my relatively calm position in terms of the advice to Council in December where yes times are difficult going forward but if you appropriately and rightly provision for all things that

Could come to pass it leaves you in the best possible place to accommodate surprises should they um turn up councils that fail to consider that technical advice and then are surprised when things turn up can end up not having enough resources to deploy so I think that’s the important bit in terms

Of the messaging I am confident that cabinet members and chief officers will deliver a balanced budget for the current year and therefore avoid any risk of a a draw from General reserves because I simply can’t allow there to be a draw from General reserves they at the minimum I’ve certified for seven years

On the Trot um but it does mean the authority remains very well provisioned for all foreseeable risks and it is The Prudent thing to do I think that’s all I need to give in terms of technical advice chair Leia chair thank you and thanks to Mr Smith again for the clear

Advice there I think um certainly on the provision element um if members uh wish to um seek more detail on that I think as Mr Smith suggested given the given the commercial uh sensitivity around that it’s probably better done in closed session uh that’s the advice from Mr

Smith so I think we should heed that um but Jen I was going to say look I mean for those of you who’ done this process several times you know that we start the year usually in an overspend position and that usually comes down to a balanced or Surplus position at the end

Of the year I see no difference as Mr Smith has outlined why we shouldn’t achieve that this year I want to place on record my thanks to all of the directors and cabinet members for the work they’re doing to ensure we achieve that um and just on the reserves

Position again um you know in terms of the energy Reserve as Mr Smith alluded to it’s important to differentiate between actions we proactively take to set up a specific reserve and then deploy it to help schools and others deal with what’s an energy Spike at the

Present time um that’s gone out not just to schools obviously but to Care Homes and to um community centers because all of those are facing really um big shocks in terms of their energy bills that is different to having to uh run to reserves in an unplanned way because

You’ve suddenly discovered a shortfall so again it’s it’s a difference in terms terms of how you do it um and again in that context that’s why I’m saying this year um there will be planned use of reserves in order for us to take some of the stuff that we set aside and deploy

It to help people through those difficult times thank you Leader councelor Peter black yeah thank you CH I think we should have a in camera session at some stage to get a proper briefing on that particular issue I’ve just got a question in relation to the report

Itself apart from that on page 56 um we’re looking at an over spend of 2 nearly 2.3 million on school transport cost and I understand we have statutory responsibilities with that and and in a sense a lot of this overspend is outside our control it just seems to me that we

Are get facing increasing cost in school transport on a sort of haphazard way because of the way it pans out I’m just wondering whether there’s any review of how we can better meet the demands on school transport and how we can meet those statutary responsibilities in a

Way in a way which will hopefully minimize um these sort of increases in future maybe get better value for money ler yes there’s there’s multipronged uh uh approach to this one so uh there’s various elements there’s the home to school transport element there’s the general School transport I

Mean look one of the the challenges at the moment we we uh operate within a deregulated bus Market where uh councils like ourselves because we didn’t have Legacy bus uh services that were prevented from running them uh the bus bill is due to come out in the summer

And again I’ve been clear that we’re going to take an opportunity in that to look at what we can do to either control or run Services ourselves so there’s a real opportunity there I know schools are already uh looking at utilizing their minib buses that they have uh to

Uh provide uh uh transport to those who currently uh receive home to school transport there’s been some Pilots running which have been uh pretty interesting in terms of uh delivering a service as a a lower cost uh the other aspect of it of course is um we have uh

You know a heavy Reliance in terms of uh use of taxi services which are very expensive currently so again if we can use School vehicles in Li of taxis where that’s appropriate that can help bring down the costs as well so we we’re looking at a range of how we reuse

Vehicles that we have both within the schools and council state how we can look at um running Services ourselves once we have the powers to do so and substituting different uh models uh within that service to try and bring down costs I think the biggest driver Mr

Smith will correct me if I’m wrong but I think the biggest driver within that figure at the present time has been the increase in fuel costs uh that have driven that up uh so that’s the biggest it’s again it’s another energy Spike uh consequence but again even taking that

Out there are some elements of homet toschool Transport uh which are incredibly expensive uh and therefore we need to look at is there a better way of delivering that safe service to to get people back and forth to schools I mean we had a discussion about this in a

Recent governing body meeting and I think the problem with the use of school mini buses if you’re relying on volunteer teachers there’s a cost in terms of training people up and of course maintaining the bus themselves so in a sense that seems to be an ideal solution if just the teacher Goes Sick

You know you find yourself without that that transport solution so I think there needs to be maybe a more sustainable solution in terms of that but I think I agree with you in terms of fuel cost a major contributor but also um the taxi costs and the cost of escorts where

Where we can maybe start to share and and and maybe coordinate transport that might help to bring the cost down as well yeah absolutely agree okay uh Ben Ben Smith so yes just to to to follow on from what the leader has said yes it is the drivers of fuel

Costs and then the pressures on operators but to link it back to the previous item it’s one of the reasons why I’ve also and um maintained a central inflation provision and I have very specifically provided for additional cost pressures in home school transport centrally at the moment for next year recognizing that whatever

Reviews take place in terms of trying to remodel all options over transport operations and whether it’s done at a local level in schools and the pressures that individual operators face um I have prudently made sums set aside to recognize it will take time for there to

Be inroads to the the cost pressures but you’re absolutely right both of you that the pressures are yet another energy Spike and it is another line of defense and one of the reasons why I’m holding quite a still significant sum in central inflation and not deploying it out into

The service at the moment because I think in my view in the very short term is those cost pressures will continue to abound regrettably albeit energy um fuel costs have come down a little bit uh there are still undoubted pressures in that part of the system

Okay thank you I think the the idea of a um a close session for the discussion of the Equal Pay uh provision is a good idea and I think we we will Pro put that as soon as possible we can because I think many people thought this was over

And done with um so I think that we will program that in as soon as possible uh any okay any more questions if not can we I’ll move on to the next item which is the performance Court item eight on the agenda which is uh oh can I thank you leader for your

Attendance today um okay thank you on the attendance of count uh Mr Richard h okay item eight is the quarter two performance monitoring report and it’s Mr Richards Richard Roland sorry thank you chair I know that councelor David Hopkins uh has sent his apologies and you’re all on your own I’m afraid okay

No no worries thank you chair so this report it sets up performance for the second quarter of the year meeting the council’s uh key priorities as they’ve been described in the corporate plan as you can see in paragraphs 2.1 and 2.2 on page 62 this is a new format performance

Report that uh that is more comprehensive and uh what it tries to do is to bring together both the qualitative and quantitive information in a more rounded way to try and better describe program ress meeting our well-being objectives that are set out in the corporate plan so that involves

Bringing together the progress meeting the steps in the corporate plan the success measures the performance data and the corporate risks with an overall evaluation provided by the chief executive which Builds on the individual assessments for each well-being objective provided by the lead directors and heads of service so just looking

Very quickly at the quarter 2 report itself in appendix a which you can see starting on page 67 there is an overarching assessment of performance at quarter 2 which is provided by the chief executive and then started on the next page we have each of the corporate objectives in turn

Starting with the safeguarding people from harm objective where we have an overall assessment of performance against this objective provided by the director of Social Services on page 68 and then on pages 69 and 70 there’s an update on each of the steps in the corporate plan to meet the safeguarding

Objective and then on page 71 an update against the success measures for safeguarding included in the corporate plan then the corporate performance indicators on page 72 and then finally the corporate safeguarding risk on page 7 23 and then this format is repeated in the rest of the report for each of the

Corporate objectives in turn so that’s the the structure of the new report just take you back briefly to the pie charts in the covering report which you can see starting on page 62 in paragraph 2.3 so those pie charts provide a summary of performance at quarter 2 which shows

That the majority of items were on track uh during the second quarter and then if we look at paragraphs 2.3.1 on page 64 that highlights some of the key areas of achievement during quarter 2 and then finally in paragraph 2.3.2 on pages 64 and 65 they show the

Main areas as a quarter 2 where further improvements are needed thank you chair thank you Richard I have to say I the layout of this um covering report is very good uh very clear uh and actually is it does give a lot of uh information in a very confined and and very

Constructive way uh I think it’s a far better setup and I congratulate whoever’s whoever’s done it because it it does highlight the performances yeah it’s good thank you very much uh are there are there any questions for any members uh councelor Peter black yeah thank you chair there’s

A lot of detail in this so we can spend all day going through this bit by bit but what what’s stood out for me in terms of the performance indicators and in Social Services um which is not my page numbers don’t seem to marry up with

Richards um on page 71 72 72 I think the performance indicators there the number of visits the sent of visits to children on the C on the child protection register which were not overdue um is in the red um Target is 90% And the actual

Is 74.4 2 and then on the next page um corporate risk in for the safeguarding priority all the rags are in red on that so that is obviously a matter of concern and I wonder whether we might want to um as part of the letter as result is try

To get some information as to what exactly is going wrong there and where we and and what action is being taken to put that right unless Richard can answer that question which I that bra much I I don’t think you can answer that Richard as as as

Well briefed as you are I don’t think you’re can answer that one uh okay any other questions anybody else no thank you Richard thank you very much thank you chair thank you oh sat here for quite a bit of time um okay it’s uh Steve over to

You should know by now um yeah so good morning everyone um invited here this morning just to give an update on the destination management plan for Swansea uh which covers the period 2023 to 2026 and was approved by cabinet in October uh last year um and the report sets out

The progress um that we made in updating the previous plan and getting to a stage now where we’ve consulted with businesses and stakeholders locally as to the the priorities really for uh our Focus over the the the coming period so in terms of a a brief recap um you know

The the report is there and hopefully You’ had a chance to see it um the destination management plan is what we think is aptly titled back on track because we F feel there’s a sense of um um focus uh understanding and uh confidence with the tourism sector that

We’ve been engaging with over the last few years and therefore back on track seems appropriate as far as they’re concerned um and I think as far as everyone’s concerned post post pandemic really that we’re getting back to uh doing what we what we do best the destination management plan is is a

Document that Welsh government have generally insisted upon local authorities have um you know we’ve produced a number of them inhouse um and to do that we’ve had to produce a number of pieces of research to inform that over the the last couple of years um for

Those of you who don’t know the figures you know we do as a destination and encourage and receive about 4.2 million visitors um you know these are figures that are you know following on from Richard’s um um U performance indicator um monitoring chart there you know one of the key performance indicators that

We do report to Council in terms of the numbers of people visiting the area um you know the the the destination management plan uses that data along with three other pieces of research that we conducted uh in 2022 which included a visitor survey and a survey of businesses to help inform what the

Priorities are and clearly uh 2.2 in the report identifies what those strategic priorities are for the industry not just as as a council you know we have a major part to play in delivering the visitor experience but you know we are working alongside businesses and other stakeholders in order to do that and

Those strategic priorities haven’t really altered over the years is still very much about trying to improve the quality of the destination trying to make sure it’s a yearround industry and that it’s supporting both the economic and um you know environmental sustainability um and also that we continue to work in Partnerships not

Only with businesses and the sector but also you know government uh bodies and equally as important you know um internal um departments Within the place directorate which ultimately has the um you know huge responsibility in terms of maintaining the landscape but also encouraging investment and also providing the facilities that you know

That visitors come to expect when they visit visit a destination on holiday so in terms of those priorities they we wanted to break them down into both actions and impacts and ultimately outcomes which in you know which reflect what the corporate plan um is looking for but also other documents and

Strategies within the council um they are all part of this bigger picture really which is taking place and I think we’re all we all welcome the amount of investment that’s happening at the moment and is planned over the next couple of years and you know the report identifies where you know that

Intervention has happened with completed projects you know some really significant ones in terms of you know what’s happened at the arena with the uh you know the bill building of that facility but also then some of the other infrastructure improvements that are taking place across Swansea which

Enables us to you know continue to reach out to visitors and say that the product and the reasons to visit Swansea are changing and of course all the you know the stuff that’s in development as well you know we’ve got a huge program of work that’s underway um you know that

We’re either delivering ourselves directly working with third parties or working with other um organization and the private sector to deliver so you know there’s there’s plenty to remain optimistic about and you know that’s kind of underpinned then by the the research then in the report uh 2.4 onwards which gives a general breakdown

Of of the population we are a city we are a relatively small City so to receive 4.2 million visitors does come with the benefits then in terms of making sure that it keeps people in employment um you know and that’s is evidence is certainly in the accommodation sector where we outperform

Pretty much most of whales in terms of hotel room occupancy the hotels in the city orbe it there’s you know probs not as many but their average occupancy and their monthly occupancy exceeds certainly the whales average in terms of um another piece of work that we undertook was to establish

How many bed spaces there are you know that’s important in terms of you know knowing who’s out there um and that’s kind of broken down then with the bed stop figures and then Al also the value of Tourism you know I did say it was about 4.2 million visitors and you know

Nearly 1 and a half million of those are staying so it’s important that we understand you know that split between day visitors and the Stayin visitor market and for the first time in 2022 that exceeded the half a billion mark Mark in terms of financial contribution to the local economy that’s

The local economy at large so it is it is direct spend to attractions hotels guest houses restaurants cafes but also things like transport and also things like um uh shops retail because you know we do try to encourage visitors to to spend money locally so in terms of those

Visitors we did a a survey it’s probably one of the most comprehensive visitor surveys that we ever undertaken it ran from um March April time to around September October in order to get a good feel in terms of what visitor uh characteristics are during that period

But also then what they felt about their destination when they came because that was important in order to inform um you know other services other bodies in in the areas of improvement that were required some of the key facts from that visit the survey are um highlighted

There in an infographic just to make life a little bit easier for us all but I suppose the most pertinent one is that you know that bottom right hand corner that 96% of people who visited would recommend Swansea to you know anybody to to to follow up on that and also 99% of

Those who did come also said that their stay was very very enjoyable so you know we we’re obviously doing some it right both ourselves and and private sector Partners but it isn’t just about you know reflecting on past glories you know there is some changing and some

Challenging times many of those you know we’ve heard about the you know demands on people spend and you know people making tough decisions as to whether go on holiday or whether to you know to make improvements to their properties or or you know the general cost of living

Really is is making people think twice about how they prioritize their spend tourism trade survey so we went out to uh businesses we were particularly pleased with this because uh I don’t know whether it was just timing having come out of of covid but we don’t usually get a great response from

Businesses when we reach out to them but we had a a particularly favorable response in terms of the numbers of businesses who um provided feedback and they gave us a real insight in terms of what the priorities are in terms of support from the council that they

Needed but also for them moving forward how optimistic were they for the future where do they think you know they their priorities lie and you know that’s helped inform the plan as well the third piece of research that we did during 2022 was the hotel demand study and I

Know this is probably been reported previously but essentially it was a a a piece of work that we had commissioned to enable us to inform future inward investment inquiries from um potential Hotel operators but also some of the existing sites that we’re looking to Market at the moment and again another

Really positive piece of independent research that came back from industry specialists in terms of the the main sort of um headlines from the the survey um um where you know coupled with interviews with Hotel managers locally general managers they also were able to tap into some of the um industry uh

Statistics that are available to them which businesses you know provide on a a weekly monthly basis so essentially the summary of that was that Swansea needed more hotels we certainly with the amount of demand and the amount of people visiting the city we weren’t keeping Pace with that with the amount of hotels

That we needed to provide so they certainly have indicated strongly that we need at least another three hotels across the city to meet that demand and you know again we’ve provided that in infographic form just to to highlight the key findings of that and that’s another significant piece of uh

Work that we undertook in 2020 uh three it was the sort of tail end of 22 and then the report was published in 2023 so that’s that’s kind of given us the the the picture behind the scenes in terms of what businesses were saying what visitors were saying and where our

Priorities needed to be in the future and then we also did a summary then of the marketing activity because essentially we’re only a small team of um four people um four members of Staff two of which do the marketing uh one of which uh my colleague Geraldine alongside me uh does that engagement

With trade um tries to understand their their business requirements and also then we got one other member of Staff supporting the team but our marketing is very much focused around those priorities in terms of seasonality we don’t generally do a lot of marketing during the summer because we know people

Are going to come anyway our aim is very much to make sure that businesses feel that there is a market coming through in that spring autumn winter shoulder period so that you know that’s when the majority of our marketing activity will take place and certainly during um the

Covid period you know we’ve tried to focus a lot of our campaign activity on real reasons to visit and that’s based on the the the sort of visitor research that we’ve had um you know our campaigns have ultimately been about growing our audience base getting more people to

Sign up to emails in the future because that’s a good way of encouraging to visit getting us to uh getting them to follow us on social media channels our social media following has increased significantly introducing and keeping up to date with the trends around things like Tik Tok and the growth in Instagram

And more people signing up and registering with with YouTube we’ve got our own YouTube Chanel Channel now of all the videos that we’ve produced over the years and just making sure with the resources that we’ve got that we’re in places where the markets that we know

Are coming to Swansea from that we have that presence not only on social media but some of the high-profile things that we do on some of the main uh transport networks and contained within the report as well as some of those examples uh that you’ll see both in terms of PR the

Coverage that we’ve got um in attrac in journalists vloggers and bloggers down to the area but also then some of the evidence there of the uh the presence that we have in the main transport hubs as well one of the new things for this year

Is our uh inclusion of um the work of the events team because we recognize how important events are to um to visitors around planning their stay they like to know what’s going on and we have a fairly robust event program either the we’re putting on ourselves some of the

Calendar events like the Wales Air Show um you know Outdoor Theater oyster mouth Swansea Bay 10K but also some of the events that we enable to happen as well some of the you know the concerts in the park and we’ve already announced one for for this year uh which is James Arthur

And we’re looking to put on a weekend of concerts which will enable people then to plan around that but you know we recognize that events not only attract visitors but you know that enables us to um you know package things as well so you know come down to the air show not

Just for the Saturday or the Sunday but stay the weekend and explore some of the wider area so that um section is is new for this year’s um destination management plan and how that all fits in it’s important um that you know we recognize that in in the hierarchy of

Things what we do at a local level in tourism is reflected in in terms of the the national aspirations with visit Wales and their priorities but ultimately within the it’s a corporate priority within the corporate plan and the best one that um that we align to

Really is the fact that what we do from a tourism marketing investment events portfolio perspective is it helps towards Transforming Our economy and infrastructure and that’s the one that you know that the um you know the team will constantly strive towards uh contributing towards ultimately it’s about numbers it is about people coming

Into the area and it is about spend perhaps the numbers of people isn’t as um important as it perhaps once was we’ve got good numbers of people coming out through you know a good spread of the year but we do need them to spend more what the research is telling us is

That people are making tough decisions on how much they spend when they come on holiday and therefore you know the fact that we’re working with so many more businesses now is that we’re giving them more reasons to visit and therefore more reasons to part with their money and

Spend locally in terms of um you know how we’re going to deliver this plan we continue to um you know work with uh within the framework of other working groups and other departments to make sure that tourism either appears on um their agenda or is certainly a key part

Of the model for delivery within those working groups and we will continue with the governance model in terms of reporting to a Steering group which is chaired by the cabinet member um and which is a made up of colleagues from within place directorate but also um representatives from visit Wales and

Most importantly from the private sector locally who continue to sit at that group and and receive uh you know the reports of progress in terms of progress and what that might look like ultimately yes we do want people to spend more money when they come and stay locally so

Working with even more businesses now in in 2024 is going to be um you know advantageous in terms of um the the product that we can promote but also you know the businesses now we’re not just working typically with hotels guest houses and attractions more and more you

Know coffee shops restaurants bars um you know the entertainment industry per se you know we’re working more and more with and that success will hopefully yield in higher occupancy figures for both the the Stayin um Market but also you know more spend within within retail and um our partners generally that we

That we continue to work with so looking forward I think you know we’ve identified that you know we’ve seen a lot of changes over the last couple of years there’s certainly plenty more on the horizon um and we’ve come to to recognize that you know a big part of the Regeneration program that’s

Happening across Swansea there’s a big visitor uh Market um implication in all of those in terms of the the capital projects that are being built and you know we hope that you know they will add to the you know the increasing numbers of reasons why people visit Swansea between this period 2023 and

2026 and we’re particularly pleased with the partners that we continue to work with and and and we’ve had some sort of short um responses from them in terms of the work that we’ve done with them or the the optimism that they feel for their own business and for the

Destination moving forward and um you know that in summary is um the destination management plan that we look to deliver now over the next uh two and a bit years thanks steeve um now members questions councelor Peter black yeah thank you chair can I first of all congratulate you on the format of

This report it’s very readable and easy to understand and good moral I think for other officers in in other departments but time don’t say I told you that um just quick looking at the visitor survey um I was quite surprised actually um in terms of where the visitors come from

Like my recollection from the 80s and ’90s we seem to get a lot more visitors from the West Midlands in those days and nowadays we seems to be mostly coming from the rest of Wales which presumably indicates day visitors and people coming to use the arena and the

Various venues going here I’m just wondering if we if we had so many visitors in the west buildings in the past maybe we should be maybe directing marketing to get them back here or maybe the covid has actually impacted on on that particular issue but the main issue

That came from the VIS for me was the um the the the issue around public toilets it’s it’s it’s highlighted in the visitor survey and it’s also highlighted in the trade survey I’m just wondering how this is fed back to the re relevant departments and and the political

Process to ensure that we try to address that for the future yeah apologies still can’t get it right yeah so the first point on the Midlands it’s still a market that’s still important to Wales and in particular us um prior to um this report you know we

Uh did quite a lot of work in the Midlands when the football team were in the Premier League because you know we recognize it’s a fairly close Market in which to reach out to it’s still on our radar in marketing terms so we still will do stuff in and around Birmingham

Okay so we haven’t um you know sered all ties with our good friends in the in the Midlands um 2000 fans went to the Birmingham match yes well went the other way didn’t they yeah so um Pro probably good ambassadors for us as well why were

They were up there um but yeah it you know it is it is and will continue to be one of the core markets for Swansea and and and for Wales um with regards to toilet strategy yeah and it features in that box where the visitors say we’re

Not performing very well and it’s very very important to us that you know toil the toilet provision is improved so much so that as as place directorate there is a public toilet strategy working group and I won’t say Geraldine sits on that group but uh Geraldine is our

Representative on that group and um you know we are looking at how we improve the provision and I think I don’t wherever you went in Wales people will complain about the toilets and I and I think you know that’s you know there are probably standards that we are across

Wales that we’re failing to meet but I think in Swansea the general provision is is okay it can be improved I know you know the introduction and improvements to some uh toilets are often um the good work of of colleagues in other departments is is is almost undone with

Some antisocial behavior that takes place in there and the general treatment of them which isn’t helpful particularly when you’ve got that use of both visitors and um and residents requiring them but the you know the we are members of the the toilet strategy working group

And within that we are looking at how we can improve we have got uh two new changing places facilities at NAB Rock and rosil so in addition to you know you the the general uh toilet provision we’ve also got these new um uh change in places facilities which you know on the

Back of what we’ve got in Caswell um mean that we’ve got a a much better provision of uh that that side of it as well so yeah I think the the issue with toilet Provisions must prob be sign posting I mean 7 when when you got 73%

Of visas are basic basically here to Camp or or or use Caravans I mean they’re they’re obviously looking for public tourists more than you than say people who are in ping accommodation um but clearly I know you know obviously there are two very good toilet Provisions in the quadrant um but the

Are the sign poses so people who come to City know where to look for them and certainly um mumbles has a good provision I know as you say City so it may well just be signposting as the issue but you’re absolutely right because I know there were a lot more

Toilets in the ‘ 80s and ’90s all of which end up being closed because they’re being vandalized all the time and we just couldn’t afford to keep them up but I think maybe we need to maybe look at maybe sign posting the toilets better might might help and we have

Reopened the ones in the marina as well you know they they’ve recently reopened so um yeah okay thank you uh councelor James oh thanks chair um you mentioned um about advertising local events ma the major events because phys visitors want to know what’s on so they

Can join in and fix what dates they want to book to visit is there a facility for advertising the smaller local events such as the G show The Village carnivals CU I know that campers particularly um and those in Caravans really enjoy coming to the carnivals so is there such

A facility that these events can also be advertised yeah so pre previously the provision would have been I suppose the go-to document would have been the Watson that you would have seen in most in most um restaurants cafes but that ceased um just before covid what we’ve

Tried to do now is to create an online version of that and um visit swansey bay.com is a is a shared Prosperity funded project now that we are um currently in the the early stages of procurement to develop a new website which will have have a greater events

Presence on it it will enable um local event organizers to add their event free a charge and it will enable us to then promote those events both to a resident audience and visitors as well the the the plan for this development of this website will be over the next few months

And um you know we’re hoping that it’ll be uh procured built and launched in the Autumn 2024 in the meantime what we’re doing the new the existing site is still there we’re still reaching out to event organizers they can still add their events free um the site is still a little bit clunky

And that’s why we are you know looking to develop a new website over the the course of the the coming months but um with with locally as well certainly within the city center as part some of the other shared Prosperity funded projects we are looking to increase the

Opportunities for some of the smaller operators perhaps with smaller budgets who still revert to the more traditional forms of marketing they have a presence locally as well so that will enable some of the you know the sort of cultural arts music venues to have a a space within the local Street Scene which

Could be you know some of the um some of the poster sites that you traditionally see in in big cities so slightly shorter midterm a greater online presence but in in the short term looking at how we can perhaps promote uh certainly to a resident audience um some of the

Opportunities that events bring locally as well thank you what say the website was called please it’s visit swansey bay.com thank you so that’s that’s traditionally been the uh the website that we’ve used to market the destination okay thanks very much councelor Susan Jones Thank You chair um can I just say

What a positive report Steve it’s it’s really heartening to see so much happening with the touristes industry in Swansea I was away over uh the new year and spoke to somebody from West Midlands who was run raving about the beach house in Swansea so our advertising is getting

Out my um question is can I have a copy of this report a hard copy to put in the local Library we got so many negative the city you think the Swansea is doing so badly and this really is a very positive uh outlook for Swansea yeah certainly councelor Jones

We’ll thank you for your kind words we’ll um if they was if they were um being entertained in the beach house then we clearly attracting the right type of um visitor because plenty of money anyway they they they’ve got a good disposable income um but with regards to the report

Yeah we can certainly make that available to you and um um well as your one of your local constituents I’ll I’ll take it upon myself to drop a copy into the library for you there we are Steve that’s brilliant thank you Steve okay uh councelor Mike White yes thank you chair thank you

Steve for the comprehensive report can I just ask and when we do the marketing how well is it is is a a special feature within um uh our information regarding our our blue flag beaches and green green flag parks are they a feature within within the advertising uh scope

That that we used to to that we send out or the people can look at yes certainly councelor white and and one of the things that we well I actually chair the Beach’s working group um which um is uh we’ve got an action plan in that to make

Sure firstly that we maintain our blue flag status moving forward because one it is a key performance indicator but also it’s another reason why people visit the area the visitor survey indicated our natural beauty our landscape our beaches is one of the reasons that we visit so there’s a

Linkage there in terms of the destination management plan and the beaches working group to make sure that we maintain the standards in our blue flag beaches to continue to achieve those Awards but also as well that um our beaches pretty much feature on the ma vast majority of our marketing

Activity so recognizing you know what the what our visitors said in in the past survey um you know if unsurprisingly although you know it still comes as a bit of a shock to us there are certain people that still don’t know where Swansea is and that’s our Mantra really that we continue to

Say where we are and you know we lead on imagery the Striking imagery that we’ve got that our Coastline and our um you know Wales Coast paath our Countryside our Parks you know they all play such an important part in attracting people to the area but also to Residents as well

It’s important that you know residents our um our residents utilize those uh facilities particularly this time of year and that’s prettyy much been the focus of what our campaign is for January and February it’s about our well-being it’s about encouraging people to go out to our networks of cycle paths

Foot paths our beaches and get out there in in the countryside and get some fresh air and you know some of the things that will hopefully improve their mental health and their well-being well it’s dry I think after the after the couple of weeks that we’ve

Had it’s dry so thank you m councilor Mark Tribe good morning all thanks Steve um a couple of issues uh it’s more to do around street names and signage uh talking to the people who do visit the area I’m aware of the street names around the city center they either

Absent damaged or ineligible due to the condition of them dirty most of them and the other one uh concern I have is the it’s litter not just around the sa1 area but Citywide uh it’s pretty awful out there at the moment and uh I have to pay my respects to councelor Wy fitgerald

Who I saw on Sunday afternoon doing a bit on L picking on the pent earlier but uh street sign is certainly is an issue and the lit particularly on sa1 is pretty awful at the moment thanks thanks Steve thank you Mark I think you’re making a note Steve is making a note of

That now okay any other member C uh Mike yes uh yes what I was going to say was first of all the way you’ve set this up on the graphics are ex excellent they’re really good and um the only thing I would I would like to see

In the future is the number of people staying in hotels in swans is actually quite small and it’d be very good if that figure was increased uh because it’s better for the local economy and AP from that is fine thank you yeah I think um you know we all

Recognize that our hotel provision and the report high that highlighted that is that we need more hotels and perhaps we don’t necessarily need more hotels at the same standard as well although you know a lot of the hotel operators Now operate Brands so the star grading system is almost is almost secondary

Really to people’s decision making what we need now is a few more of those national International Brands um in Swansea to help Elevate our um sort of um awareness really amongst the marketplace cuz not not forgetting these these hotels do a good job as well in

Mark in the area they want to fill rooms on the weekend as well so they will actively reach out to their um mailing lists and say you know come to Swansea this weekend because there’s an event taking place or you know you can walk the ga Coast path or you’ve got

Businesses that are you know that are new appealing um we’ve got attractions operating or even you know what we do find as well um with colleagues from NE B Albert outside people will stay in Swansea and and use it as a base for exploring the wider area as well over a

Over a wider period so you know there’s lots of different reasons why people stay but ultimately we do need more hotels to to attract you know more staying visitors any other members no um Steve I have to say and congratulate you on the report I think it’s it the

Layout is excellent uh and I think it it’s actually encouraging to see one as as good as this in the council I I’ll be bluntly honest with you because some of them have been good this reminds me of the bay strategy that we had back in 2004 which was arguably the best best

Document we’ve had uh for the for Swansea Bay and and for tourism there’s a couple of things in it which uh I was surprised to see uh the selfcatering one on the visitor survey the self-catering and the Caravans didn’t didn’t come above hotels which surprised me a bit considering we have some big

Caravan I know we don’t compared to Penbrook we haven’t got anything like that the the size of the Caravan Park but I was a bit surprised at that um also surpris I’m not surprised about people not knowing where Swansea was when um we did the exercise with Swansea

Futures uh and we had the urban um uh the W company did a survey in London and in Birmingham and asked where Swansea was was I think out of half a dozen surveys possibly 20 or 30% knew where it was the others had no idea but that

Changed actually when we went into the Premier Division and 80% then new so there there is something about football being an advertising Medium as opposed to anything else um but the the toilet one I know is is a major issue and one that I know private bus private

Companies we encouraged to actually take a grant the Welsh government grant to actually she pay for the trade survey was also very interesting and the one I liked the bit I liked about the operational confidence in the regional offer of our beaches and what have you

It’s no wonder it’s that high when you consider the quality of the beaches that we do have the one thing I say about the hotel survey is if you go to Penbrook they haven’t got a multitude of large hotels but they got a lot of small boutique and high quality hotels and

That’s the difference we had langland Cod we had the langland bay we had casual Bay they all went now those are the type of hotels that that that are prominent down in in in in Pembrook and in parts of Cardigan and they the ones and in North Wales in some

Respects they the ones that actually get a lot of of custom uh so I think that’s the one thing we we haven’t got if we had more Morgans or types of hotels that’s the type of thing um the other thing is that there’s very little in here about

Children I know they not spend a lot of money but they parents do and I think there’s there’s very little in there about that and there’s very little in there about the fact that we are the only city in in the UK got seven castles

One for every day of the week and it’s a unique salion Point um but overall I got to say it’s an extremely good report uh and as councelor Sue John said who is your local counselor um uh it is a very very positive report and one that we

Should be very grateful of thank you very much and thank all the staff as well okay can we then move on to item uh 10 and we don’t it’s you’ve been bored to death enough so I it’s fair free to for us to say thank you very much and if

You want to go more than welcome to go the next item is item 10 10 which is the work plan uh has anybody got any questions or comments on that the the meet nine which is uh in February is the pred decision scrutiny on the cabinet re uh cabinet report on

The annual budget the the question the comment I made to the leader at the end of the meeting was uh was the fact that I hope there’ll be no change is on the morning of the of of the of the um budget because that way it can’t be scrutinized properly but

Apart from that are there any other comments regarding the work plan perhaps we can have the Equal Pay um close session then as well well that’s what we bu and get it for the February 8 I wasn’t aware to be perfectly honest with you that we had issues with still had

Issues with it that came up in a previous scrutiny I think but we hadn’t quite worked out the quantity exactly so we’ll have to we’ll have to do that okay if that’s the case thank you all very much indeed for your attendance uh as I

Say we’re now going to have a a chat with our colleagues from Nathan balbert if any of you want to stay online you’re more than welcome