Sophia Jowett is a Professor of Psychology at Loughborough University whose research work mainly revolves around interpersonal relationships in sports, with an emphasis on coaching relationships.
(00:00) – Coach-Athlete Relationship and Favorite Characteristics
(14:46) – Importance of Coach-Athlete Relationship
(26:32) – Coaching Relationships in Sports Teams
(30:56) – Culture’s Impact on Coach-Athlete Relationships
(45:26) – Coach in Athlete-Centered Approach
(49:15) – The Importance of Collaboration in Coaching
(54:53) – Coaching
(01:05:41) – Perspectives and Relationships in Coaching
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Sophia welcome to the podcast thanks very much Louis thanks for the invitation I look forward to the discussion yeah so one thing I just want to kick off from this conversation is if you have any who are some of your favorite coaches wow uh difficult question for the point
Of view that I don’t want to um disappoint anybody that I have met yeah there so many anyone listening to that don’t take offense to this there can be there’s there’s no favoritism but there are I guess if I was to reframe it then is to what would be some of your
Favorite characteristics of the coaches that you’ve met um some of the um the most positive characteristics I will say it um and and maybe maybe U I’m affected a little bit and maybe I’m biased as well uh because of the work that I do but um I I do um
Appreciate um characteristics on on a code that highlight that they have a genuine interest H in in each one athlete performer um under their wings um that’s what I you know I look out to uh to say whether you know they they have established that sort of connection
Interest um that is authentic that is pure and uh if they have that then I’m confident they will do a good job or they are doing a good job uh in in in their job so um that’s what I’m looking this is the characteristic the main one
That I look anyway do do you um have you ever watched Ted lasso um people have mentioned to me but I haven’t no God you’ve got to get on to it Soph you’ve got you 100% need to be watching that because I think just I’ve actually dedicated an entire episode to
Some of the the the the takeaways from that whole series and I think the reason I’ve said said this before on the podcast and the reason why I love Ted lasso as an as a show so much especially the first and second series is it actually gives people whether it’s
Purposefully done or not I don’t know that actually gives people a a guide of how to deal with some of the issues interpersonal issues that we face as not only whether it’s in sport but actually just in life the relationships we deal with outside of sport and it’s it’s
People apologizing to each other and you actually get to see how an interaction of of of real purposeful apology may happen or people owning their mistakes or or or really caring for each other what it actually looks like and it’s such a wholesome show it’s comical it’s wholesome it’s got these real deeper
Meanings to it around mental health and and and connecting with with each other but I think one of the the brilliant things that comes out of it is um is Ted L the charact head the head coach Ted Lass so is he is constantly interested and there’s the famous quote that in one
Of the scenes of of quoting Walt Whitman be curious not judgmental he’s so curious about the coaches he’s so about the individuals he’s so curious about everyone and and rather than judging and and um and having a hierarchy in that system it’s it’s about being interested rather than
Interesting yes yeah oh um you haven’t so uh better this program to me so I’m I’m on it it after this I can’t believe you haven’t watched it yet I can’t believe you haven’t um haven’t done it so yeah you I haven’t watched it yes I
Should get on with it yes yeah right we’ll set that up so where did where did your passion come from coach athlete relationship and your research within that where where did it ignite for you uh great question um yes because uh we all have um the these little triggers
Don’t we um as researchers that um um trigger our curiosity um so it started when um um potentially I think when I was an athlete myself and uh um I come from Greece I was born BR up in Athens from a very very um family um sporting
Um oriented family and uh when I got involved in sport I used to run um in athletics 400 meters hurdles um in the I was involved in my teenage years from about 12 to about 20 I had three coaches I will say three good coaches in that period um but the
The middle coach was the the coach that really made a difference uh to me um and and reflecting back but also when I was an athlete myself um I think I was aware of the um the impact this Cod has had to on me uh personally and so that that second coach showed
Exactly um the interest and um was very caring and understanding um he was the only coach that asked me what do I want out from sport you know what are my goals and aspirations uh he was very engaging and truly truly very interested in me and to make me a better athlete
Because that’s what I wanted I really really did um and I was the it was the period with him and we were only together for two years where I did you know um fantastically well in sport I broke records I was a national champ School Champion a club champion you know
In Greece so um it is the one that I will forever very fondly remember unfortunately he has passed out passed away rather and um uh yes um that’s how I think I developed an interest in in um in in the topic that we are talking today which is the coach athlete Rel
Relationship but also I to be perfectly honest when I when I started as a researcher doing my PhD um in this particular area I I did realize Lis and that was a long time ago must m almost 25 years ago H there was nothing around coach aing relationship you know the
Word or the term coach a relationship was very rarely mentioned and therefore that kind of um Justified um um my my interest uh my scientific interest that there was a gap that needed to be um understood a little bit better to to to close and and F so there there we are so
It was an interest that started when I was an athlete myself uh and um also scientifically I thought it was justified to to pursue that line of inquiry when it’s actually beautifully wholesome that that that’s the way in which it started because it clearly started from positive impacts that
Coaches had on you quite often I I think having spoken to academics that have dived into research areas that potentially did have gaps in in the academic space that it was born out of a a negative influence that they had and I would even argue some of my research
That I want to go into is is based out of negative influences that that I experienced and it’s it’s sort of that wanting to write the wrongs that you felt you’ve you’ve had before but but hearing you say well actually I had a a path that was that was a positive one
For me and one that had a great influence and I want to explore why that was and and I’ve heard you say before about even sort of coming out of the the Frameworks and models that you’ve you’ve found in your research is that it’s not about uh being a bad coach
That it’s actually just not good and it and I’ve heard you say that before which is really interesting it’s that we we can sometimes frame coaches as bad so that’s a bad coach and I thought the way that you said that previously was that actually what we
Found is that it’s there’s there just not good and there is a good and there’s just not good as well yeah yeah I don’t know whether that is um an attitudinal characteristic of mine to to to to pick up things in that way um it may be but uh I think there’s
Always room for for improvement uh and um that’s how I see it so you know we we all start from a certain point which may be X how do we get to a you know to a point where it is H much better point I suppose so maybe that that that that is
How I I I see it I we got to start from somewhere there’s always room for improvement and we just need to be aware where where we stand where we are H so that um we we can make those um we can progress and advance in ways that can be
Very positive for ourselves uh and for others yeah so to to set a bit of a foundation for people on on the podcast for this episode I’d love for you just to to explain the 3 c+1 Model what you found uh and and yeah the there’s no better person to have describe it
Because I don’t want to butcher anything alongside it so it explain to people what you found and and what the the characteristics are okay thanks for the opportunity to describe um it’s very simple the model that we have created um um so let’s get started so it’s say um
So when we started that research um we realized as I mentioned earlier that there was nothing much around the coach AR relationship as a concept as a phenomenon and and therefore one of the first things that I I wanted I set out to do as as a PhD student many years ago
I was to um try to pinpoint this rather elusive phenomenon um and um the reason that I I wanted to to have a very clear conceptualization uh description uh of of the phenomenon was that if we can um if we can capture it if we can measure it then
We can improve it so um the the conceptualization um um goes something like this um we defined um we defined the code athlete a relationship as a situation as a social situations situation that occures between the coach and the athlete and we we felt that this it was important to capture coaches
Athletes interpersonal feelings thoughts and behaviors and we knew that because we are capturing a relationship the interdependence of these thoughts feelings and behaviors were very important to to highlight so um starting really from from almost zero although we we did look at research that has taken place outside sport for
Inspiration and we H interviewed hundreds of coaches and athletes we um um measured quantitatively through surveys um thousands of coaches and athletes and and we have come up with this model that we um um know as you mentioned 3+ one C’s and the 3+1 C stands for four constructs that describe
And capture the quality of the relationship uh closeness commitment uh complimentarity and coorientation so I will explain very briefly that right with you each one of these Concepts and then we can you can ask me questions and we can elaborate a little bit more about what this Co conscious capture um so
Closeness reflects both a coach and an athletes um affective Bond um the um captures their interpersonal feelings and the the core feelings that we want to see in a in a in a good quality relationship from a closeness point of view uh include um coaches and athletes trust respect appreciation and liking
One another so um if we have a coach and athlete um uh relationship uh when and they both report that they have high levels of trust respect appreciation and liking for one another then we have high levels of closeness um if these individuals report low levels of trust
Respect appreciation and liking then the TR the the closeness is is low and of course we have a scenario where the coach and the athletes uh perceptions can be um Divergent uh they may not um overlap as such and again that will um highlight that there is a low level of
Of closeness there and we would probably want to investigate a little bit better a little bit more why and so that is closeness in a in a natural and and closeness is we feel very very important when I speak to to coaches and athletes for the matter that matter and I ask
Them what does a good quality relationship look like the the first things that they will say is respect trust um and then appreciation may come and may follow and a very few might mention liking but liking it is important as well to to keep in mind um commitment now commitment reflects a
Coaches and athletes intention to maintain a close need um Bond H over time and of course um um we we both appreciate and I’m sure your listeners will will will appreciate the fact that um in order to progress and advance and improve skills uh improve performance
You need time and therefore um the the commitment uh between a coach and an athlete is hugely important especially uh during a times of hardship or when things don’t go quite well so that when there is burnout when there is injury when there is a personal ISU in the
Lives of these people um H commitment is the glue that keeps them together um very very important and also commitment is important when there is a little bit of conflict maybe disagreement misunderstandings incompatibility the higher the level of commitment to one another um the the more the likelihood to resolve um their misunderstandings
Their Mis their misalignment perhaps in their views uh so from commitment we move to complimentarity now complimentarity captures coted athletes um interpersonal behaviors uh what they do when they are in the presence of one another and um complimentarity probably say synonymous to collaboration or cooperation so
Um we will expect both the coach and the athlete where when they are u in the presence of one another to be receptive to be um responsive uh to be um adopting a friendly stance to one another as opposed to be hostile or cold or distant
H and to be at ease or rela relaxed in each other’s presence so these are important characteristics that I will look out when I observe a coach and athlete in action to they demonstrate uh these um uh behaviors for example and I will expect both the coach and the
Athlete to to to show this through their behaviors through their interactions um but also complimentary captures the role complimentarity captures the roles that um the unique roles that the coach and the athlete assume in this particular relationship so um the coach is a person that we
Expect to be able to to lead to direct to instruct to support to provide feedback um and on the other hand uh the athlete uh we expect and they expect themselves uh to be able to execute um uh instructions to be able to filter information advice um uh in h and out as
They see fit and so on and so forth H and that takes is not the last C which is coorientation and coorientation um very simple I will say you is is about um the the common ground that the the specific coach and athlete diad H have established over the course
Of of them being together so in in a young relationship in a relationship where the coach and the athlete for example have just um come together it’s a very new H their Common Ground their Mutual understanding about um perhaps their goals their styles you know their preferences their fears their their
Goals are not well established yet you know they’re in the process of getting to know each other and understanding so their Common Ground may be quite limited um versus um a coach and an athlete who have been in a relationship for quite a while and therefore their common ground
Is is um it’s is larger so they they know and understand uh one and another really really well and I I remember um and I often use this um anecdote uh well it’s not an anecdote I think Bob Bowman the the coach of Michael Phelps um said
In one of his interviews I don’t remember whether I heard it or read it he said that um I I I know um how um Michael H will um execute a training session by just seeing him entering the pool it is you know this kind of highlights and reflects the level of of
Understanding that that coach has relative to that athlete how well and they they know one another uh to to kind of make those judgments those evaluations and as a result um Bo bman say I can use that information to adjust the training accordingly but also it kind of initiates a conversation perhaps
With with the athlete if you see an athlete not being 100% then you know curiosity as you said Lis kicks in you know how are you today you know why am I seeing you being a little bit low or a little bit not yourself so and from
There we we can um develop further conversation and understanding about the state of of The Athlete’s mind at at that given time so I I think that that more or less you know captures the fources but I’ll be happy to uh to ask to to answer any questions you may have
There’s there’s so much to unpack there and I I mean I’m going to go back to closeness and there’s something you mentioned about um like and closeness being this this uh this yeah quite literally the feeling of closeness to your coach and you mentioned things like respect the values
That you might have and and I I was thinking about this which was so often you do hear people say you don’t have to like someone to get along with them and I think if I’m if I’m thinking about coaches that I’ve I’ve worked with
The ones that I felt the closest with or the same the same way I would have a coach that I two coaches one that I I felt close with one that I didn’t feel close with now both of those coaches I could trust them I could respect them I
Could feel they’re like ultimately good at what they do however the one I feel closest to is just genuinely the one I like the one that I have got on with and and and have mutual understanding with or a bit of fun humor and and they like
Up and and it’s it is that Clos is that liking of them I don’t think that is to be underrated I think it’s so important that we actually like the people that we work with yeah I totally agree and um um I must admit I do get a little bit of push
Back from coaches particularly and not so much from athletes when when they you know refer to to this particular relational property that holds us together uh yes coach is sometimes do do find it difficult to to say to kind of see that liking actually liking our
Athletes is um is important and the way I explain it is that um if you don’t like an athlete you know if we take it you know the other way around um if you don’t like the athlete then inverted inadvertedly you um close off of certain opportunities uh even unconsciously or
Subconsciously and it is very likely that you will give more of your time and more of your resources as a coach to an athlete that you truly like as opposed to someone that you you don’t like or or or or you you like not as much as as
Another so lighting can create a little bit of biases in terms of resources and opportunities and I want to open up um coaches to see that um it may be unintentionally um they they call back um uh from uh providing similar opportunities similar uh resources um to
Uh the um to the athletes that perhaps they they don’t like so we need to open up their minds uh I would love to be able to kind of ask coaches all coaches to to think a little bit about it and how it does affect you and perhaps there
Will be and a lot of your listen listeners I’m I’m pretty sure there will be coaches there in the audience who would be thinking yeah there are athletes in my squad if I am to be truly honest that I don’t particularly like for for whatever reason now those those biases are that
Are very important to highlight because I’ve seen it play out I’ve seen it happen and it can it can change outlooks very fast it can change relationships quite quickly because I think resentment resentment is a is a virus of an emotion that can spread very quickly within a human being
I think and something like having a bi bias within a within an athlete relationship group is very importantly highlighted it is it is and when we need to be more conscious about these biases and that’s why I will invite coaches kind of of consider you know where where they stand with their athletes
Particularly looking at liking because that is perhaps more contested than the other relational properties within closeness and perhaps ask themselves why why perhaps I dislike or not like that athlete and and I would probably go back and say potentially because you don’t know that athlete that well and it may
Be that something that that athlete has done you know personality wise or attitudinal wise or or or or otherwise that um has disconnect you and will invite those coaches to to try to connect and find out a little bit more about their athletes and and find you
Know and enlarge their common ground and the level of similarity that they have and I think by doing that process they will probably increase their liking for their athlete and if the the feelings are mutual I I think they by approaching the athlete in that way then the athlete
Will probably come around and appreciate that hold on a minute I like that that coach right now you know he’s showing a little bit of Interest he’s spending a little bit of time with me that that says something did did your research look at both team and individuals did you did you bring
Them together did you put them all in as one did you separate them do different research on what you might find differently or similar in in whether it was an individual athlete coach relationship or a team athlete coach relationship yeah that that is a good question and um um I
I just felt you know right from the start um that um we must not differentiate uh between team and individual sports when we come to to consider this this concept that we call Coach athlet relationship I felt very strongly that relationship between coaches and athletes is important
Regardless of the sport and uh the sport type even performance level um you know and and therefore um all the research we have done we have done it uh uh looking at both individual team sports Without Really differentiating however H we have done um some research because we try to
Kind of um compare and contrast the level of relationship quality that maybe athletes H perceive in team versus individual sports and um that research actually was carried out several years ago maybe even 10 years ago and um what we found was that coach athletes uh in
Uh in idual Sports as you will expect perceived their relationship with their coaches much higher um so a much better quality relationship than athletes who operated in team sports and and of course you may say so well that is natural and expected and actually we we
Did expect it a little bit but what was the key in that research what we what we found as well was that um athletes in individual sports had high quality relationship with our coaches and and that relationship quality LED them to be much more satisfied with performance and training and instruction whereas
Athletes in individual sports having a little lower quality relationship they didn’t feel as satisfied with their performance their their training and so on so what we concluded was that maybe coaches of team sports can learn something from coaches of individual sports and really pay attention on on how they connect relate
And interact with with their athletes in in team sports makes sense because I came from a team sport and I’ve worked with athletes and individual sports and quite interestingly there is in a team sport environment while say and and we’ll for the sake of it talk about head
Coach being the the main in a team sport because in a team sport obviously there’s multiple different coaches that are going on you can have in say rugby you can have a forwards coach a backs Co coach uh kicking coach uh and then the head coach assistant coaches and all
Sorts and same in in football for example but let’s say for for example it’s just the the head coach you would expect that in team sports because you rely I think for your everyday life and training and experience that you’re having as an athlete in a team you don’t
Necessarily heavily rely on that that coach all the time you actually rely on your teammates you rely on the people around you you rely on the sort of the accessory areas around that experience whereas every athlete that I’ve spoken to that had is a track and field athlete
Is a swimmer they really that that relationship with the the head coach is so it’s so much more concentrated and it because it’s sometimes they’re traveling with them um they’re they’re maybe if they are in technically a team it’s one of maybe five athlet in that team but
Pretty much the contact Time throughout training competitions is solely with that coach so it does make sense it does it does really um it does really make sense if if you were to say what some of those areas you mentioned it what what team based coaches could learn off
Individual coaches what what would you say you’ve seen that you would encourage them to take on if there was a certain I don’t know personality trait or strategy they potentially have that you’ve seen work well in individuals that could work well in in teams before before I um before I
Respond and perhaps I need a little bit more clarification about the question I I would also like to to say a little bit about um about what I mentioned earlier that the relationship uh between the coach and the athlete is Paramount regardless of whether the the sport is a team or
Individual Sport and there are so many high-profile um team sports where um the coaches talk about the significance the the the how instrumental the relationship is for performance and well-being of their athletes and I will refer to um you as you asked me earlier about um the coaches that I look up to
Or you know coaches that I quite like I follow a little bit of football and um for example coaches like Pep guol Guardiola and um um jgen club for example and other such coaches have very publicly spoken about the connections that they have with their arates and I I know you
Mentioned that you know in a in a setup like team sports you have a lot of personnel and you’ve got all sorts of you know assistant coaches strength and condition coaches and so on and so forth But ultimately the head coach is the coach that is overseeing every everyone
And every everything so I I would probably put the honest on head coaches to to take examples like the coaches I mentioned and other many other coaches out there uh um I can mention other names as well that um I really follow and um I look up to because I think
They’re Exemplar in in the way they coach and the way they use the relationship to to leverage um but yes I I would probably say that a team coach is um the they can really pay attention how they relate with each one athlete and I know it will probably be as you
Loed it h much it will require much more effort energy H to um to to create those connections but at the end of the day it will be truly rewarding truly fulfilling for the athletes for their team and themselves I believe well I think you’re right with people like
Guardiola and Klo it’s not even a hidden secret it’s completely obvious when the end of a game happens almost win lose or draw they’re walking onto the field and I I always just thinking about it I think of the coaches that are connected the best to their players are they giving them a
Hug or a handshake it’s it’s you see that klopp and Guardiola hugging their players they are they’re patting them they’re like their sons they they look like they are part of the family and you think of other coaches that you would perceive us a little bit more standoffish and I’m
Not going to put sort of a a a real label on it but you might interpret it as being a little bit more transactional in the leadership style it’s a it’s a hand it’s quite literally handshake well done great game great game whereas these guys are so passionate it it’s it’s
Really a a much more transformational lead leadership style of of of coaching um kind of on that subject whether you found this in your research or or not or this is purely your opinion how much does culture of the coach and the athlete play in that relationship and I
Think of this especially when I not only with guon Klo being not from England but I think of like us and UK culture Styles in coaching yeah where has culture played a role in in that relationship yeah uh good point so we’ve done a lot of crosscultural research I’m
I’m I’m very interested in that particular facet and um interestingly enough we haven’t found crosscultural differences as such so um we have looked at countries like Belgium and Spain and China um you know a lot of Scandinavian countries as well have participated in our studies Greece of course coming from
Greece and they have been part of it um and um yeah that there’s not we cannot find uh any any major um characteristics that may differentiate um how coaches athlets perceive the relationship or the significance and the role that the relationship play and the reason perhaps
That we have argued is that the coach relationship is a is a characteristic of good coaching and and and and good coaching is a a universal you know um when you business for example you know you’ve got certain things that are Universal and and and for for me
Coaching if it is not if it is going to be done well H will require coach and athletes regardless regardless of their you know um place of origin to to secure that that connection with the athlete now you may say o um well maybe China perhaps can uh can be a little bit
Different from the point of view that you know there there is that that hierarchy that exist uh but what we have found out that actually there’s a great deal of respect there is a great deal of trust there is a great deal of commitment and cooperation so the the relationship
Characteristics are all there and they don’t discriminate um against uh culture or um or a uh or team sport or or team versus individual sport um and um I think good coaches good coaches regardless of where they come from a PR that and they are able to um to apply it
Accordingly uh of course there will be coaches in whether it is China or UK or USA whereby um they will Coach very much command and control very hierarchical patriarchical whatever you want to call it h but that um nowadays doesn’t seem to work very well and um what we what we feel maybe
Happening and maybe um maybe useful to to to to highlight here is that through a good quality relationship coaches can manage hierarchies and because hierarchies can be a barrier in the way that the coach and the AET operated I believe and good clever smart emotionally intelligent coaches I think
Appreciate that the relationship is is is a good way of managing the hierarchies that in inevitably exist as I said coaches and athletes have specific roles to play um but meeting the athlete at the level they are I think it is very good for performance and well-being and good coaches perhaps get
That the thing I was thinking about here is especially in the more towards the US I think the us when we you were talking about again um some push back you had on coaches talking about you they don’t have to like me to to to like me
Essentially to think I’m a good coach yeah and I think if you look at some old or say old former or long-term coaches in say uh American football or college football in in America they they are that more handshake over hug relationship there’s a there’s a barrier there’s a drawn line between
This is where the coach lies this is where the athlete lies but the athletes love it like you hear about I love my coach for for the the values he’s instilling me and it’s a much more it’s not it’s not a hierarchal maybe is a hierarchical relationship but
It’s just seems a much more Stern stoic form of a relationship but it’s embraced in that culture now I think of in the UK I don’t know how much that would I think it would be accepted in Parts I just don’t think it would be accepted in lots
Of parts we tend to want to have this much more I want to like someone and enjoy their company and feel like they’re maybe a bit more friendly and that again is maybe this British culture that we have as a part of it I’d say the same in
Australia like people want to have that sort of friendly attitude happy go-lucky sort of attitude but I’m then s thinking where does Generations start to play a role as we start to move towards a more genz orientated world and there’s no secret that that is a a a gener
That puts wellbeing at the Forefront of their thoughts yeah For Better or For Worse sometimes there’s a big debate you could have on that where do you sort of see the coaching coach athlete relationship moving as this generation starts to to be the athletes that we’re
Coaching yeah okay uh before I get to that remind me if I get lost but um um there is um an area there that coaches sport organizations need to reflect on around the subculture of the sport because you mentioned American football I think earlier and there is a you know
A particular subculture that is being created now interestingly enough you know if we’re talking about what effective coaching looks like and if a part of that effective coaching the coach athlet isue has an important significant role to play I will say that H the subculture that exists and it is
As you described um it’s not potentially the best one you know and it it it has been perpetuated over the years and that’s how we do it here and so on and so forth but is it is it best for everybody I will question that and and
That brings us back to also we may come back to that a little later on Coach education and Coach training and and coaching skills you know often you know our coaches or some coaches certainly um if they found themselves in particular subculture they’re going to coach like like they were
Coached and and that goes back again to perpetuating of certain values and uh and certain Norms that are not particularly the most effective um uh as we move into the 24 the 31st century and and Beyond it and talking about now the generational issues yes uh you know it
Is very sure that we are bringing our children very differently H we want them to have voice we want them to be engaged we want them to interact and we want them to be leaders for you know for themselves um and and to have an opinion
And why not at the end of the day so coaches will have to deal with the with with that a way of of expression um which is I think a very healthy way o of of of doing things uh working together um and they will also have to uh you
Know kind of um come to to terms with the technology uh that our young people um engage with and uh uh it’s it’s very prominent in their lives but I I think um I think where we are going with um with coaching and and um putting the spotlight on their relationship is very
Healthy because we allow um the the coach and the athlete to work together and what I would like effectively to see um is an environment where both the coat and the athlete make contributions H you know it is very much given take um the as we said the coach
Showing um you know genuine interest in the athlete and the athlete is able to to reciprocate as well uh and that would be a much healthier place for both the coach and the athlete and for our sport you know given that uh we want to see
Winning well H and we want to see a much healthier Nation uh because um I don’t know if you if you saw today uh the um sport England uh adver not advertised announced the um the the results of of a of a survey they run um on um active
Lives children and young people and they indicated that 7 million uh people are active actually 7 million young people are active they are doing some sort of physical activity in sport which is wonderful to see right but there are other individuals that um many young people that not participate in sport at
All and so um what sport England is set out to do now through um reuniting the movement strategy is to eliminate barriers and get more people involved in sport now my point is whil we get more people engaged in sport and physical activity which is great um you know
Across actually the um the age range uh we need to have more coaches or people who deliver coaching that are um having the skills H and and resources to do a good job to enhance the experience so that we can see lifelong participation in in sport that is rewarding and fulfilling
And and and without those skills I don’t think we will ever get there but what is a little bit worrying for me um L is that whil we are talking a lot about H young people and participation and even performance of course let’s not forget that um we talk
A little bit less about coaches and and their skills and their training and their education we need many more coaches we don’t have enough and we need coaches who are you know skilled uh to to to pursue it uh in an accountable and responsible way so I I want really the
Spotlight to to be on coaches if we can or people who deliver coaching and and training I’m um I’m booking in a conversation with uh Richard cheum who is MBE and he’s a coach educator in cycling have you come across Richard before yes yes yes I mention tce I’m
Really Keen to talk to him about this this idea of Coach education and not only the the technical and tactical Concepts that or or Frameworks that are taught within a coaching education and actually this stems from going through my masters in performance psychology just purely as as I’m looking through it
And going why is this why is some form of this not on every coaching manual qualification not to the extent that you need a masters in it but some form of understanding of some of this work which would obviously why psychologists mental skill coaches exist is to provide that resource but I just
Think the biggest issue we’ve I get from whether it’s a psychologist or a mental skills coach that comes on here is that the lack of understanding of the work and the importance of it from a coach’s point of view is sometimes where the barriers lie and where the the the walls
Come up because they don’t if you don’t understand it you don’t really know it’s value so that’s a really interesting but I do quickly want to go back to something you were talking about the the sort of athletes owning their their training and things like that and owning
What they’re doing do do you think we’re potentially moving into a place where coaches are maybe placing too much onus on the athlete to sort of take care of things and and be accountable and are we letting go of coaches actually coaching and being the one that sort of making the rules and
And setting things up and I wonder whether that is a generational thing a societal thing with a bit of cancel culture that’s going on they bit maybe a bit afraid of making decisions but yeah where do you lie with that oh yes yes I I’ve got a a thinking uh that again you
Know it’s informed by the work that we are doing we have been doing for for such a long time um yes I I do worry a little bit about um uh things and um so I I will refer to this because I know you will appreciate that
And we we started many years ago um even when you know the the first Inception of sport organized sport kind of came to being you know and we had coaches that coach in a certain way and we call it very often you know very quick description as a command and control
They had this sort of you know um you do as I’m I’m told and we did that for a long time as I said I was one that one of my coaches um uh was very much like like that uh and and then um now what we
See is that the pendulum has swun all the way to the other side where now you know the the the responsibility um the honors as you said is on on athlete uh so and I I wonder whether we tried to overcompensate you know it tried to move
Away from what we thought it was not working very well or was not f for purpose you know today h to to going completely on the other side uh which I feel that um I think you alluded it’s not as as effective and as productive and useful and it won’t certainly fit
You know talking about diversity and inclusion it won’t certainly fit a lot of our athletes some of our athletes might be happy to to get on with such an approach but many athletes won’t be able even to um to um to to to to to approach
Uh their development in in that way and and as you said by doing that we undervalue and undermine the role of the coach um you know where is the coach you know in this what we call athlete centered approach um what is the coach and what role
Exactly does does he or she play um so I wanted to redress that um um you know that situation that we have now and I have proposed a a combined approach of Coach athlet um you know um combined coach athlete approach to coaching just kind of to reunite a
Little bit the command and control on one hand the athlete centered uh um approach to coaching on the other and say look you know good coaching is somewh in the Middle where both the coach and the athlete work together and there will be some times that the coach
Will have to take the command command some other times the athlete will take the command but essentially most of the times the athlete and the coach will work together together and this joint contributions and this um give and take and the reciprocation is at the heart of
Of the athletes development and uh and and well-being as well and coaches you know feeling rewarded and fulfilled by being part of that of that process yes and um this is where I am I think and I don’t know if I did answer your your question but I I don’t particularly see
This AET Center approach and when I talk to coaches actually about AET Center approach and then I kind of um describe the combined coach a cender approach they say oh um I I thought that the a center approach is very much the combined thing that you’re describing
Now so um interesting yeah this is what I think anyway look I I’ve had coaches that have said look take account of your careers it’s your career so we and you hear them say we facilitate what you want and aart me thinks well that might be a little bit of a cop
Out because it might be a coach that’s just saying well if the results don’t go the way then it’s the athletes ran ran the show sort of thing so it’s not my it’s not my doing but I think again this is also level dependent I think this is ability the the level of
Sport that we’re at I wouldn’t be talking about Recreational Park football for example here or Young Junior level Park football I’d be talking about more professional settings I think there isn’t there is a level where the coach has to go well I do to most of my degree
Know that I know best and also I know that you know best for what you want therefore we need to work together if I was to only give you what I think is best for you that’s not the right way if you were to only give what you think is
Best for you that’s potentially not your way because athletes are human beings I’ve seen many professional athletes that will take the easy Road and that doesn’t necessarily create performance development growth and at the end of that well being because you haven’t got them best out of yourself no so I think
Being able to blend both of those perspectives both of those views experience knowledge everything is Paramount it’s it’s how you do that that is very individual to the person but I I think we are at a risk of saying okay I need to be so focused on the
Athlete that on what they want that I’m actually taking away what I think is best and I won’t go into the parents topic too much but I think parents especially when they’re again if we’re talking say junior level sport here I think they do need to have a realization
That when you’re handing your child over to a coach you have to trust that it’s going there’s going to be conflict it’s going to be ugly it’s going to be messy you might not agree with what they’re going to do but very rarely as long as
It’s done in the right way there’s going to be positive benefits that come out of it I was very when I was living in Australia I was and looking after an entire Junior section of 80 to 120 kids I remember the first day that I started
With these the this group was I brought all the parents in the first training session we we didn’t even do any Cricket we didn’t do anything but I just brought them in and had them for a meeting and I said right these are the values that I
Behold what are the values you would like to create as a group and we created them you’re going to hold these as your own I’m going to own those values with you but also we’re going to set some rules and I wanted the parents in the
Room to hear those rules so that if there were any issues any like arguments that might come up we could address them but to say like does anyone think any of this is going to be bad if I set these rules and your child turns up late to
Training and I’d send them for laps and the team have to do laps with them and things like that do you think that’s bad and they go no it’s fine but it was opening that that sort of door conversation so that they knew okay I’m taking control but at the same time I
Want to know what you want how would you run it and I I sort of ped reading your research I was like okay that seems like a bit of a middle ground that I found there but I have seen obviously the other end of that could have been me
Saying right you will turn up at this time you will do this this is what you’re going to do like it or lump it we’re done or you go the other way you go what tell me what you want tell me what you want I’ll do everything you
Want me to do and and and I don’t think either of those are right so yeah there’s that was a bit more of a practical way in which I started to try to accommodate that athlete coach centered approach and I think is the way forward and also you know what what
Reminds me uh when you were saying uh is this um this uh phrase that often is being used that again I mean I don’t know how you feel and how your listeners might might think but for me when um coaches themselves say I want to be
Redundant in the life of my athlete I’m thinking um well I’m not quite sure what you mean exactly so um and it it goes clearly against what I see as as a through the research that we are doing as effective coaching uh to to to make redundant yourself um what exactly does
It mean it doesn’t doesn’t really work like that um the I mean how many Olympic level uh athletes do we see or or par Olympic athletes that are on their own uh that not only they’ve got a coach but also they have you know a bunch of other
People helping them to to achieve their performances so um yeah we need to kind of um reconsider and reflect the narratives that we create around effective coaching and and clearly the importance of the relationship between the coach and the athlete and just to follow up this with the something that
Might resonate with what you said that I see coaching as not knowledge dependent and what I mean by that is that as you as you alluded the coaches don’t have all the knowledge and their athletes whatever their age maybe 10 11 20 30 40 year old their athletes might might be H
They’ve got a lot of knowledge they hold a lot of knowledge that can be critical to what they together trying to achieve so if coaches don’t tap into their athlet knowledge experience and so on um they will miss important pieces of the performance puzzle and
It’s crazy but of course L you know to to get to the um athlete opening up and offering knowledge and offering their thoughts their opinions their values their their feedback to their coach we need to create what I call a psychologically safe environment where they feel comfortable to speak up without fear the
Word fear is very important you know how many coaches actually ask themselves um do my athletes feel Fearless in in the environment I have created or fearful and how do I know so you know it is important and then that brings us again one last little Golden Nugget there for you to
The idea that um you know for me coaching whil coath relationship is very important is not just that there is a Golden Triangle that I have to realize through the work that we are doing leadership coach leadership hugely important and of course you know coaches need to develop leadership skills which
Is very different from relationship skills which is very different from communication skills so this is the Golden Triangle of of a competent coaching you know leadership relationship and communication are uh do overlap but they’re very different and our coaches if they want want to do a
Good job a satisfying a job they need to develop in all these three areas that fear is a really interesting point because you hear people who played under Sir Alex Ferguson for example Sir Alex Ferguson’s regarded as one of the greatest managers in in football and you would hear David
Beckham Gary Neville Paul SKS guys that were playing under under him in his most dominant era they would talk about how they had fear in them of of that but I I wonder where that fear is coming from it’s it’s what the fear what they’re fearful of right it’s it’s is it
Fearful of the repercussions of the rules at which that that coach has has set that’s I I would argue that’s perfectly fine and I think of good coaches that I had and I I’ve actually voiced this before is that when I went into a junior setup in an academy
Setup when I was trying to make it as a pro the environments I went into fear was a quite a Big Driver now there’s a there’s almost a a bell curve there where that fear tips over and it becomes very detrimental to what you do you you
Don’t want to make a mistake you don’t even want to try something out of fear of what it might mean but I think some level of fear engages you and enough to go there’s something on the line here whereas I think if you were completely fearless and and there was no fear that
Might disengage you it’s got again we’re probably talking complete differences in personality here um well in terms of the fear we we’ve got to to say what exactly do we mean about fear and and um fear in in the the context I’m using it is that
I can take inter personal risk I can ask my coach you know or I can tell my coach I’m injured I really hurt you know and that is the element of lacking fear will be very helpful for the athlet to actually be vulnerable and say you know
What they what they feel and think and having fear about the expectations are high and we are all accountable you know we really need to put training you know that type of fear it’s something different and I will not call it fear I will call it you know we are in a
Challenging environment uh in environment where we really need we have high standards high expectations and that gives us a little bit of a you know something to think about but it’s not you know it’s not the fear that I’m referring to which is you know taking um interpersonal risk you
Know it is connected to can I take actually interpersonal risk can I ask my coach um is my coach actually you know going to give me critical feedback and I will you know accept it you know this is the en environment that of safety that I’m refer the psychological safety that
I’m referring to uh you know and I I would like athletes to to feel that um the standards are high and there’s a lot of expectation there and and to be um up for it and if if you call it fear fine but I refer to something very different you
Here I think yeah I think I think judgment plays a big role in that I think I’ve seen many environments where athletes fear the Judgment that the coaches sometimes even their peers will say put on to them and that stifles them from making a decision or asking a
Question so I think judgment definitely plays a huge role and and I’m I think I’m really attuned to it now when I walk into an environment I am very conscious of the phrasing and the language that they’re using is is and I’m I’m very grateful for my mindfulness training in
That to to be able to to think about that in any way but you see so many coaches that will use maybe throwaway comments that that you don’t realize are just slow paper cuts towards someone’s fear of eventually asking a a question that could be seminal to their development
And they’re never asking that and then later down the line getting to a breaking point where they don’t have the answer that could have been drawn out later down the line so yeah judgment from coaches I I’m I’m just a huge no no for me get rid of that
And it’s I think that’s it but you cannot you know take away judgment you cannot take away um um humiliation embarrassment unless you create um an environment where our athletes feel safe to speak up and you know what if we could you know I wonder whether coaches are fearful of creating an environment
Like that because then they will have to deal with a lot you know having athletes coming with all sorts of ideas and all sorts of opinions but that is okay because the coach as I said earlier is a leader sets the tone you know is the is the wiser the older
And wiser perhaps not always but you know he can actually in a tutorial you know educational way if something comes their way because they have created that fantastic environment of of speaking up and voicing one’s thoughts they can actually say you know what this idea is
Great and thought about it or this idea it doesn’t fit with our culture our values you know where we are going and so on so they can they can push back you know but in a way that the athlete will know and understand okay I spoke up so
I’m happy and now I’ve got my answer as well which I’m happy as well um but we need to develop coaches uh so that they can manage that sort of responsibility I I guess yeah I I will actually add into that that when I talk about judgment I’m
Talking about Judgment of the human being rather than potentially the outcomes I think you you need to be judged on outcomes in sport you just can’t get away from it so we’re not ripping away the performance element there so if there’s any coach that’s screaming at the the listening to this
Podcast going well they need to be judged otherwise we’re never going to know how good they are I get it but it’s about judging the human being and and making sure you’re not putting that judgment on well I think you’re less for for raising this issue this idea it’s
Encouraging them to be themselves yeah and not stripping away the standards that you potentially set I I want to dive into um coorientation and perspectives and meta perspectives because this for me was something that I I don’t want to say could be one of the big culprits of breakdowns in
Relationships but potentially one of the culprits of through lack of communication so do you mind sort of un unearthing a little bit more around coorientation the perspectives that athletes and coaches might have yes cor orientation therefore is um the the essentially very very simply is um the the shared knowledge and
Understanding that coach is you know a given coach athlete um diic relationship have and U you know if a Coach has got to 20 athletes he will have you know 20 different Cori taking place there um and as I said some will be um you know quite quite broad um
Because they have been developed through communication so through interaction through experience and others will be a little bit less because um of the lack of interaction the lack of communication and so on and these are very very important for both performance and wellbeing and actually um the the notion of coorientation
Um it does coincide very much with another concept that we have just started investigating um that relates to Shared mental models that you you may be may be aware um which is you know what we know and what we don’t know um and that is important as well isn’t it
Really H because it kind of um regulates the ways that we interact in the ways that we collaborate and and the ways that we behave if we don’t have knowledge about what I like what I dislike what are my abs what my goals so how you know what how the training you
Know um unfolds over a period of time that will destabilize the way that we work together or it we w’t work together as effectively as as we can this is essentially coorientation and there I say I should say the truth here because we are honest and open coorientation is probably the one
Construct that we have not researched as deeply as as we could um so as I said we are trying to make some connections with shared mental models as we speak so we are working on that in order to further our understanding in terms of um what are the important areas where
Coaches need to come together and have this level of certain understanding apart from knowing where our relationship is because coorientation really captures you know the the level of common understanding we have about our relationship quality whether it is good or not so good or or or or
Discrepant uh from the ways that we understand it so um I don’t know if I if I have given you the answer probably not but that’s it was it was it was looking at perspectives that I found really interesting because the perspectives of of assuming what someone thinks about
You or them assuming what you think about them and I mean jesz as soon as I looked at that I was like this is just this is far beyond coach athlete this is in romantic relationships this is in friendships this is in every relationship you could possibly think of
Is yeah do I am I assuming this person likes me do I genuinely know this person likes me do I think do they think I like them and yeah the the the perspectives was a for me I I I feel that sometimes can be the the well I felt there’s so
Much room to be made in that that space of understanding each other’s perspectives to build relationships and I’m not I’m not discounting closeness commitment complimentarity all the other areas I’m just thinking that this one could is is almost like that’s the Gateway that can get so much space and
So much ground in building a relationship in in my opinion through reading it yes yes for the benefit of the of the L listeners I suppose you know because you mentioned the direct and The Meta perspective so the direct perspective is about how we um view for
Example in the relationship how I think or feel for a one of my athletes for example so yes I like my athlete this is my direct perspective my you know um uh with regards to closeness and then I also have the meta perspective which is how I think my athlete
Thinks o of me relative to like so um yeah I’m I believe my athlete likes me and I make these judgments uh based on previous experiences previous interactions now it may be that um there there are times where you know this direct and meta perspective of one
Person H are very similar so I like my athlete my athlete likes me a lot you know in a similar sort of way but it may be that I like my athlete but given what I have experience through his interactions with me and my a doesn’t like me so that the perspectives can
Also um go the you know the other way and um yes both our perspectives both the direct meta perspective as a collective shape you know our relationship you know um you know the final product of how we look the relationship can be shaped not just by the direct perspective but also from The
Meta perspective and what our research is showing is that um I think about 75% our perspectives come you know align uh so you know uh so which is good uh but there there is the other bit that uh um we have found that you know when the
Coaches are and athletes are a little bit different in points in in their points of view which can create a bit of conflict or misalignment and uh um if that’s the case then their interactions are not as effective as they could have been that that 25% that you talk about
There that’s that’s potentially not where everyone aligns is that possibly what is that almost like the the straw that could break the camels back on the relationship that that sounds like quite an in because it could be such a potent emotion or perspective that that person has that it could
Completely out wa like human beings we so focus on the negative so viscerally that we completely forget about all the good bits and what we do share and value that are we potentially focusing too much on that 25 percent you know it is interesting that we have that percentage and if it was
Working it was an applied practical sports psychologist for example working with an athlete and I I could see you know a discrepancy in perception um then I would be interesting interested to know why it’s taking place and and you mentioned that you know lack of communication for example you know if
You cannot pick up precisely how the other person thinks and feels about you there is an issue isn’t isn’t it there so is it because you know you haven’t paid attention in that particular athlete and the ways that they respond to to you um you know what is the
Disjointed element that we need to fix you know again I see it as a potential for development and building and and and progressing the relationship to to to a better level because clearly there’s something lacking there um but there is also personality issues you know that 25% it
Might be because you know we’re very different in the ways that you know we um we relate you know attachment Styles I’m thinking insecure individuals versus secure individuals and then you’ve got personality um orientations you’ve got those who are gregarious and open and those who are introvert and and neur
Neuroticism so um and that’s why when we talk about relationships and the quality of the relationships um we need to appreciate the context you know the the The Wider environment within which the relationship you know develops and and and unfolds we need to take into consideration the organizational aspects
As we discuss perhaps the subculture the the culture um we need to take in consideration individual difference characteristics the gender the age uh the experience personality um and of course relationship characteristics as I said if if you’re in a longterm relationship that relationship will look much different from a a newly established
Relationship so the context the contextual factors that surround the co coach ath relationship quality we need to be very mindful yeah I’m I’m very conscious of time and we haven’t spoken about Compass um model of of sort of maintaining relationships which I think I’ve heard you say before as well is not
Necessarily about building them it’s about maintain aining them or or bringing them out of conflict and I I I I don’t want to go through it every single one but I thought one so for people that are not listening Compass model stands for Conflict Management openness motivational preventative Assurance support and social networks
For me the support and social networks was an interesting one because I think the others you can sometimes they can um they can explain them for them elves a little bit but the support networks um I’ve spoken about this before about what support looks like
From a coach an athlete and that I think when we talk about support many people will talk towards it having to be an arm round the shoulder caring loving sometimes that could actually be setting standards it could be holding someone accountable it could be a little bit
More of a tougher support and I I don’t know what what have you sort of of found there as a part of managing relationships maintaining them through this model there there is a a whole host of literature around social support you know wein another hour honestly yeah true we can refer to um
But we we are talking about informational support uh emotional support different types of support um when support is given when support is is needed and you know and you know about the G you know the person that gives support the person that receives the support there’s so many um multi
Multifactors here that play out L and and probably need another to talk about support I tell you what maybe if we if if we um if you have the ability maybe we come back and and dive into another area of Coach athlete relationships in the future yeah let’s talk about compass
In in some detail about communication strategies and other strategies because apart from the the seven you mentioned you know we can talk about caring you can talk we about compassion we can talk about empathy and there are many strategies that that people can use our coaches and athletes
Can use to maintain relationship quality um so yes we okay we’ll put we’ll put a pin in that for for future episode um before before we wrap this up one thing I one thing I’m curious about is there is there any direction that you’re really curious about in your research at
The moment something that is sort of setting you on fire that you’re you’re really Keen to get into in the new year um there is quite a lot actually I have started two projects with um a a different domain of performance Which is far from sport but the commonalities are there
And I’m I’m key to transfer some of our knowledge from performance Sport and relationships between coaches and athletes to uh um music and and dance and performance arts in other words so I’m very ke to transfer some of what we know uh in in a different um in
Different domains um but also I’m looking I’m interested to to understand the um the the complex Dynamics uh that we have at play particularly at performance level sport where the coach and the athlet as a unit relationship have to collaborate um and and and to work together with other um scientists
And multidisciplinary teams I’m thinking you know in terms of physiologist and the psychologist and the nutritionist and and the physician for example come together when perhaps the athlete is injured um you know how do we you know deal with all these relationships who is leading the proceedings H how are they
Managed so I’m just quite interested to delve into this social support um or the support network that we have in the compass model yeah that that’ll be interesting to find out about and and two questions I always ask guests before we leave is is there anything that you are
Currently reading watching uh listening to that’s inspiring you at the moment yeah well um I’ve got a list of books to read over over Christmas I don’t know how many I will be able to do but um uh I I am reading uh hidden Potential from Adam Grant at the moment
Hopefully I’ll finish for Christmas and then um I would like to get um reading Amy Edmundson the right kind of wrong or is it the other way the the right kind of wrong I’ve not heard of this book way anyway it is about failure and and and how we
Can um reframe failure in a positive way which I’m very interested to to read I’m definitely going to add that to my list um I’ve not heard of that one and the last thing is if there’s anything that we can challenge people listening to this podcast to take action with from
This conversation we’ve had what would you place a challenge onto to people well um from a from a coach’s point of view I will say coaches um keep an eye on on the coach athlete relationship examine how you relate and communicate with your with your athletes um what uh
What are the the connections that you have with your athletes like um and pay attention to those athletes that perhaps uh you have an established a a storm Association um for for for whatever reasons this might be so just pay attention a little bit to those athletes
That have not been for whatever reason connected with you from an athletes point of view I would say be aware of the relationships and they’re very critical very important and um I I think we need to help our athletes to appreciate the power of relationships it
Can really um change uh a lot I I believe um and we need to equate both our coaches and athletes with with relationship skills I think U so so I I will leave it as that love it where’s the best place for people to send them
To follow what you do your work any any research you have coming out I am on LinkedIn and I’m also on X so um if you want to follow me uh please feel free um I do Post quite a bit yeah we’ll leave all the links in the show notes for that
But for me Foria thank you so much for for opening up this research in general and diving into this but thank you for your time also coming on the I really appreciate it thanks very much Lou for the opportunity to speak about the research we are doing here at Labor
University and uh maybe we can speak again yeah look forward to It