I Married The Wolf Of Wall Street

My Juicy Con show in Vegas was the best one yet! Big thank you and love to all who came out.

In today’s episode, I sat down with the one and only Nadine Macaluso, aka Dr. Nae! Famously played by Margot Robbie in The Wolf of Wall Street, Nadine recalls being love-bombed by ex-husband Jordan Belfort, their tumultuous relationship, and how it all led to her work as a therapist specializing in dealing with narcissistic partners. She shares red flags and some basic tools for navigating abusive relationships. And of course, you know we had to cover and fact-check some of the iconic scenes from the movie. This is a juicy one. Enjoy!

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Heather McDonald has got the juices scoop when you’re on the road when you’re on the go juicy scoop is the show to know she talks Hollywood Tales her real life m s serial data and serial sister you’ll be addicted and addicted fast to the number one tabloid Real Life podcast listen in listen

Upop Heather McDonald’s ju scoop hello and welcome to Juicy scoop I’m recording this from my beautiful room at The Palazo Tower where I performed at the Venetian Saturday night to so many juicy scoopers soldout show it was all that I ever wanted it was my favorite

Show that I’ve ever done and I’ve gotten an incredible amount of compliments and so many in person because the next day Sunday yesterday I went to Bravo con with brand and Julie and my sister Shannon and my son Drake and we had so much fun I loved meeting so many of you

And it seems like everyone really had a blast I’m going to get more into that on Thursday’s show but um in a nutshell I think they did it it really ran smoothly it was a lot of fun moments I saw but not really very juicy I think the

Juiciest moment was at the Heather McDonald live show and I talked a little bit about that on my patreon which you can listen to right now I dropped a special one on Sunday um but we did go to the final Watch What Happens Live last night we got tickets to that and it

Was like the shade room and it really just wasn’t very shady I think people were really on their best behavior as far as like dropping juice or really dissing each other and the the best line was they asked this girl from Dubai I’m not that familiar with her but she was

Very funny and they said who do you think up here wears the most fake designers and she said she by shereé shereé and shereé got up and that was kind of funny she like had H her leg and she’s like hobbling around and she’s like this dress is Alexander McQueen and

The other housewife goes Alexander McQueen or Alexander MC Sheen that by far was I think the Highlight also um V the Vander pump guys Tom sval and James Kennedy had a push-up contest and James won I think those were like the things people are kind of talking about so

There should be more fun stuff like that in the future but I will do a better review and everybody they met un talked to and the juiciness but we had the best time killed it went to Great dinners just had so much fun and now I have a

Great interview I did with the real life wife of the Wolf of Wall Street you probably remember the movie the real wife is here of course they’ve since divorce and she’s gone on to be a therapist helping people that are in narcissistic relationship so very very juicy conversation that you guys are

Going to get to listen to now enjoy well we have an exciting show don’t we I am with uh Dr Nay but her real name is naen maalo she has a new book run like hell you can get it for pre-order but I’m so excited to talk to you because

First of all you’re so fond on Tik Tok and everything but you are the real life woman who married The Wolf of Wall Street so Margo Robbie played you in the movie Leonardo DiCaprio played your now ex-husband correct which is The Wolf of Wall Street is one of my favorite movies

It’s trending on Netflix right now and you just said it’s been 10 years yes 10 year anniversary come out and I mean I want to get all into it but I mean I loved that movie and that was really the first thing we saw Margo Robbie in yes

And I I remember going this not like I can I’m sure everyone in Hollywood said the same thing but I was like this girl is a star this is she did you like the way she played you oh I mean I love it she was fabulous and I actually got to

Meet her because I’m from Brooklyn and they wanted my Brooklyn accent so they asked me will you meet marar Robi and I said for sure yeah oh so so before okay so let’s just kind of get into your background and you know we saw the movie remind people of the movie what

Obviously things are exaggerated for the movie but um the story of The Wolf of Wall Street in case you don’t know is about your husband Jordan ex-husband and he was just a go-getter and he really rose on Wall Street but he wasn’t doing everything correctly and it all came crashing down

But along with it what made the movie which is one of the genres of of film I Love is Like Cocaine partying New York lifestyle that 80s fast and we see all that happening ‘ 80s 90s 90s more 90s and it’s just a great great movie so if

You haven’t seen it and I say definitely watch that then order her book but let’s get a little bit into your background of like where you grew up and everything yeah so I grew up in Brooklyn in the 70s which was a great time in life I wish we

Could go back to that time in Brooklyn with a single mom and I had a really Charmed easy life and then I grew up poor so I needed to make money nobody was handing me any money and so I went to become a model because I needed money

That was simply the reason why and and did you know grow growing up that you were exceptionally pretty like when does a when does a really pretty person know that they’re pretty you know I had no idea and then at 13 everybody started to act really differently towards me and I

Was just kind of like what’s happening and somebody on my street had asked me to be in a movie and then I started to realize it but it is a strange phenomena I have a very attractive friend still very pretty today and her she was from a

Single mom too who had her very young so the mom was always young and pretty yes and I remember the mom telling me she goes I remember the first time like somebody was asking me for directions or something like a man and then they were no longer looking at me right and they

Were looking at yes my now 13-year-old daughter is like you know quite attractive so yes yes yeah and my mom was 19 when she had me so very very similar and so I yeah I started to model in the city and was running around the

City having the time of my life it was hard modeling you know you have to very thick skin so you started to do that like high school college or I did that well I did that at the end of high school in college but my mother was very

Against it she was very into education okay and she did not like it but I literally needed to make money so I was like sorry Mom got to do it and then I was running around the city and making a lot of money and having fun dating all

These rich play Boys in Manhattan and act and that’s just like in the movie I went to Jordan’s house in West Hampton at a party at a party at a big party a big West Hampton’s party that’s a great scene a big party and when you went to

The party just someone was like let’s go to this killer party in the Hampton my boyfriend oh you’re with somebody okay I was with somebody yeah yeah okay so tell that story how did you meet yeah so we pull up to this big white house on the

Beach you know I’m 22 I mean totally clueless just in I’m like oh we’re going to have a great time going to meet some nice people and we walk in and everybody’s acting so weird now I don’t know the all on Quaaludes okay so they’re all like sing

And like a little strange and then but it what happens in the movie happens in real life one of the men pulls out his penis like or in front of me and I’m mortified and I look at my boyfriend I’m like we got to get out of here this like

I almost felt scared yeah and then we left but I guess Jordan had seen me I mean I met Jordan briefly I barely even remember meeting him at did you even realize he was the owner of the house no I don’t even think so I don’t even think

So it was such a blur and then I guess he saw me and he had the this white Ferrari tester Roa with a muffler that you could hear from 10 blocks away so I could hear him circling around the Hamptons looking for me even though he was married okay so

Then so when what happened then did how did he get you to go out so then what happened is this older woman kept calling me and saying do you want to go out do you want to go out and I was like why the hell does this woman want to go

Out with me but I’m people pleaser especially at 22 so I was like sure she said well that guy Jordan BFF for’s going to come so what is he coming for is he kind of using her to facilitate day oh he paid her $115,000 to find you befriend you and

Get you to come to a restaurant yes which then he would show up at yes exactly oh my God so he like saw you and was just it was like a like I’ve got to have it the ultimate goal like fixation yes and so I had no idea I’m this naive

Like you know and I see him come out of his Ferrari with his white cowboy boot with his cowboy boots and he sits down next to me at mesaluna in the city it’s a great restaurant and we start talking I’m from brookin he’s from Queens I have

No idea I’m set up and we just got along great oh is the woman still there or she not there yeah she was there okay she was there and then he was like I’ll drive you home and I lived in Brooklyn Heights at the time so he drove me home

And then he started to like touch my leg I was like this guy might like me and then we pulled up to my house and and is that the scene that we see where you’re where he’s like what can a guy have friends no it’s a different it’s a

Little bit different a little bit different but um yeah and then he he said to me oh what’s your phone number and I said I’m listed under ailia Lopez figure it out cu I was my best friend that I lived with oh okay and then the

Next day I came home just there’s no cell phones there’s no have to sell the call the apartment and you guys split the split the phone bill down yes yes and so then I come home the next day cuz I’m throwing a party for my best friend

For her birthday and there are I can’t even 300 bouquets of flowers I can’t fit them in my apartment just the overdoing of everything and everybody’s like you didn’t sleep with him I’m like no I don’t I didn’t even know I was going on a date yeah yeah and that’s how it

Started and so um um okay so then when did you know that he was married and what did he say about that okay so then I think I left to go model in Chicago for a while and then we we kind of lost touch after that and then but at that

Point you had been romantic then no we hadn’t been romantic yet we got romantic like that was probably the summer we didn’t get romantic till around December okay and that’s when he told um I don’t know somebody said to me I saw Jordan or we got connected again and he told me he

Was separating he had an apartment in the city and so I really thought he was separated but now I know that’s wasn’t clearly the case okay and unfortunately and he had a couple kids or did he have no kids with her no kids with her okay

No kids with her and then we went out on a date and that was it we fell madly in love then you fell in love with him yeah we fell madly in love and so when he’s just you know doing amazing we see in the movie The Yachts the this that see

The John Ham character who you know kind of thinking some things up with his business did you were you clueless did you not what was it like to be the woman of the guy we see this a lot now with Housewives and stuff yes I didn’t know

What was going on which I totally can see what how that would be especially when you come into the marriage and he’s already doing so well you know what I mean not like you guys grew you know built together he’s he’s a very extraordinarily bright man very bright

Man and I mean I never knew from money like this yeah you know when we first met I was going to ask but he’s like here’s 15,000 I couldn’t even spend it to get outfits and stuff yeah I couldn’t even spend it I bought my mother a

Stereo I didn’t even know what to do with the money honestly and it was I mean listen it was so much fun the limos the dinners the and just being so in love and it just he swept me off my feet he really did he was good at it okay so

Then you get you decide to get married yes this yeah this is when it starts to get tricky okay explain this yeah so this one starts to get tricky because Jordan used to getting whatever he wants and so he’s a remember he’s a Salesman right so he starts to high pressure

Sales tactic me right he’s like we have to get married now how long you’d been dating at this point six months yeah and I was like I don’t want to get married I’m 22 23 years old we’re not I don’t want to get married if you don’t marry

Me I’m not dating you I was like all right guess I’ll get married yeah cuz you loved him cuz I loved him and then I just was like oh he just must love me so much that he wants and then it’s like if you don’t have a baby right away then

I’m not going to marry you so he was always moving the goalpost so you want to get you pregnant right away so you trapped right away yes yes I want to talk a little bit about that then I want to go back into the movie because I do

Think um in your book you really get into details and you really explain things I think this is a great book and by the way it comes out when January January 9th and I said what a great book to pre order January is that month that you’re

Like let me work on a little thing a little of everything in my life fitness health sure mental and and I just think this is like so interesting because I was telling my Pilates instructor that I work with and I said oh my interview today as I explaining who you

Were and she goes what is love bombing and she’s like oh I she thought love bombing was when they try to get back together with you and I was like no my understanding is love bombing is this initial thing much like your situation with Jordan where they’re so into it

Moves so much faster than other people you’ve dated correct that it I believe it convinces you that if this guy loves likes me this much and is so into me and is so making plans so much then this must be the right person for me right because he thinks I’m this great and

I’ve never had anyone think I’m this great before yes correct yeah it’s the intensity of it it’s the over-the-top generosity the helpful nness the um like intense attention towards you constant flattery it’s just coming at you coming at you coming at you and it actually

Kind of puts you in a trance yeah yeah where you just like oh this is fabulous and did and I mean I would think everybody like was your mom happy for you was she suspicious at all or was she like this we hit the jackpot she was but

My mom was very bright woman God bless her soul and she uh she sat me down before we got married she goes you know you don’t have to do this and I was like but Mom I love them and so and then we got married yeah yeah and why did she

Say that because she was suspicious of this Behavior she might have been suspicious and I think she knew I was so young yeah you know what the hell did I know you know 22 you think you know so much and I was I didn’t know anything

Yeah um okay so you have a beautiful wedding yes and then he’s like I want you off the pill get pregnant right away whatever yeah well I was pregnant at my wedding but I had a miscarriage okay um yeah and I do a Tik Tok about that where

You know the night before my wedding um he’s wasted now I’d say to this guy I’m going to get married I’m going to have your baby you would think he’s be present with me no so the night before our wedding we get into a big fight because

He’s he’s stoned the night before and what was his drugs Al qu Quaaludes with alcohol or what mostly just Quaaludes you don’t really need a lot of alcohol is qu even like around anymore no you can’t get them anymore because they were so good they banned them right well that

Was what they talked about at the Playboy Mansion yes yeah the leg spreaders is what he call yes yes so but so we got married and um and then you know life all crazy life began so then what H was it did you feel an immediate change right after the marriage with him

Or like once he got you once yeah it was it was slow it started I would say six months with the intimidating threatening behavior of you know you got to marry me or I won’t be with you you got to have babies or I won’t marry you you know I

Started to see it but I had never seen anything like that before and I grew up in a very calm home without because my dad my parents were divorce so I didn’t even know from yelling and all of this intimidating Behavior so I was kind of

Shocked by it and I really didn’t know how to handle it and I am from Brooklyn I’m no Wallflower so I would push back at him but I was no match for him and his temper and then I just started to see more of the anger and the control

Yeah he really needed to control me and how would you how are some ways that he would do that oh just um you could just feel it like how can I think about it like where I was going who I was going with you can’t be friends with that

Person really yeah um don’t wear that or and when that happens is it just that you do push back yeah right but then it’s my understanding that when people learn situations you push back but it’s it’s like even though you like this girl and you know she’s not bad news or

Anything but the husband is like I don’t want you being friends with that person they’re not good for you they’re not your friend or whatever that by the third fight you’re like you know what I guess I won’t meet them for lunch cuz it’s like I don’t want to come back from

Lunch and fight all night like and then so then all of a sudden that’s when the isolation then starts right yes yes and it that’s like I said so it’s little things you know then then they all start to add up right and then all of a sudden

You Lose Yourself right and you and that’s it’s a very it’s a very slow burn uhhuh so you have your first child yes and who’s that Chandler okay and so how old she Chandler’s now 30 okay great and she’s a therapist oh great yeah she’s amazing and then you had another one I

Have a boy yes his name is Carter he’s a musician oh great also fantastic so you have we see in the movie you guys have the the two kids and yes and when one of the tell me about the scene on the yacht oh yeah in Italy and what what is the truth

Of that night versus what we saw because you know the helicopter comes to save you but then the helicopter goes down like what that was all very true oh really it was the first time I had left my children cuz my son was really young

And I remember I even um like went to the backyard and got rocks with them and painted a box so they could shake it if they miss me I take bedtime stories for them it’s a big deal to leave them and we go on the yacht and we land in Rome I

Guess we were going from Rome to Sardinia and are you with um who is the guy that plays his best friend what’s his name the actor um oh Jonah Jonah he wasn’t on that he wasn’t there then it was different friends it it was three it

Was three other couples and we get there and it the captain’s like it’s going to be a little stormy but we’re pretty serious boats people by that point and Jordan’s like let’s go and we’re sleeping and the waves were pretty strong and all of a sudden I look up in

The state room and I see water coming down on the bed and I’m like what is happening and I go up there and we have a little dinghy boat in the back called the Chandler and all of a sudden it gets pushed out to the ocean and I say to the

Captain you got to call him ma day he’s like well if we call him ma a you better you better get off this yacht I said well we’re g to get off the yacht Dead or Alive like we got to call the ma day and we were in Italy so the Italian

Coast Guard didn’t speak English really and so they called the MayDay but then the waves were coming so intensely we got caught in a Squall and they couldn’t come save us and so what happens is that you know you think everybody’s going to scream in those situations but now I know as a

Trauma therapist everybody starts to get really quiet and shut down they think they’re going to die and um what happened was the Italian Co Navy was going somewhere and they rerouted them and sent an Intrepid to us to like a huge huge ship to come save us and at

5:30 in the morning this was after hours I lost 12 lbs in 18 hours from nerves when I got off the boat I looked like a refugee CU I really thought I was going to die can you really lose weight like that I mean or at least I looked like it

Like I lost a crazy amount of weight and then they said um you put you have you can have nothing on your person get on the deck and a Frog Man Came got me wrapped me up hoisted me 40t up into a helicopter and we all did it one by one

And got saved and lived and then the boat went down and then the boat went down cuz if you don’t drive into the waves yeah that was I had a I had a license plate and did the helicopter come that was trying to save you that he

Ordered did that really go down well we had a helicopter on the yacht so the yacht had a helicopter in a SE plane because Jordan goes bigger goes home so we actually had to push the helicopter off The Yacht for the the helicopter to land okay but then the that helicopter

Never came right okay yeah so the one did come that came and saved us okay right yes so it was crazy and but in the movie it’s like he pushed for this even though they didn’t really they they some there was a character that said like I

Don’t think it’s safe and he’s like I don’t care we’ve got to get there because yeah I mean that’s a little bit true I don’t think Jordan wanted to put us in Peril I don’t think he understood but you have to remember that sort of personality is grandiose they’re Larger

Than Life right they think they can handle and manage anything but no the sea you got to respect now did your mom have a relationship with them I’m trying to remember if she did and what was the deal with that they had a they had a good enough relationship yeah my mom was

Very respectful of him uhhuh and um okay so when did the marriage then like what happen I don’t remember like did he go to prison and then you break up what happened well it’s different than what they show in the movie well what happened in real life yeah what happened

In real life is that Jordan drug addiction got so insane and it just our life got out of control and I used to fight with him and you have to get sober you have to get sober you’re killing yourself and you know people that are addicted to drugs don’t listen

I didn’t know anything about drug addiction right I know how to handle it I was in therapy at the time and so and did you have those moments like I now I’m just remembering where he was wasted and he tries to take the kids from you

And I mean I can’t even imagine how scary that is when your partner you know is not in the right mind and your kids are with them or he’s trying to take the kids yeah there were two that that was the the big moment in our life when I

Said to him we had gone to a drug counselor and he didn’t come back the next day and the drug counselor looked at me and she said if you don’t leave this man you’re going to get cancer and she snapped me and then that night I

Went home just cancer from the stress of Life yeah she was I was like you have your physical health yeah she was like this is way too toxic so I said to him you have to get sober I said I’m not going to sit here and watch you kill

Yourself I mean this is insanity you know and so that’s when he went crazy Drew my clothing jewelry lit them on fire put them in the fireplace and I went into my closet and I leaned on the wall and I said God give me the strength

To do this and he went crazy I left that night my housekeeper was there I knew my kids were safe and then I came back and that’s when he said to me I’m taking our daughter to Florida I chared a private plane now I know he’s wasted out of his

Mind I’m like Over My Dead Body you’re doing that and I went after him and luckily my mother had told me call the police before you get home because tell them you’re going to home to a domestic violence situation and I chased after him he did

Kick me down the stairs luckily I was in really good shape at 31 and I called the police and they came and that was when he drove my daughter into the garage because but I I we we all were fine but because I my mother told me to call the

Police they came and I was able to stop him because I said to my housekeeper closed the garage door and we were able to stop him and that’s when he drove us onto the garage door and then the police came and and so then then then you were

Done yeah yeah after that and was he cheating on you during that time had you ever did you ever catch him cheating or it was just the drugs I I never caught him cheating that was more for the movie I think and he needed to write it like

That which is that’s his prerogative yeah um but after that we did stay he did go to rehab he did get get over and we did stay together for a year but I was done after that and then when did all the legal stuff happen and you

Realize it was all crashing down so then he got arrested and this is a very important point is that people say oh you know you left him because he lost all his money no I did it because he was now the government’s problem I knew I

Was safe yeah you know and I and I tried to stay with him and stick it out after he was sober but once somebody kicks you down the stairs it’s just not you can’t really love them again but I tried and then he got arrested and I knew that he

Was the government’s problem I was safe now because he’s very rich and Powerful you know I was afraid to divorce him right I didn’t know if he could take the kids um and then that was it and so then how much time did he do in prison he did

About 22 months many many years later oh so it wasn’t a big yeah and that’s all he did that’s all he did yeah and then what about your what about the money like what what did you live off of like did all the money have to go back to the

People that he like all the money went back and I was happy to give it back and was it like now like with Erica Jane from real house as a Beverly House people were trying to you know they they’re you got to give these $750,000 earrings back and then no they weren’t

Bought with the with the victim’s money they were bought with this like did you have to give I gave it all back oh really yeah because I gave it I I just it was what about your like engagement ring oh I yeah I gave it back oh you’re

I took a million dollars of jewelry and I drove it to the courthouse with a bodyguard and I they took all my homes everything I always say I left with my kids and my curtains because I got to S some furniture um but I was happy to

Give it back because the the people needed the money and then where then what did you live off after that now how old are you dived 30 31 the kids are how old the kids are three and five two and four I had started a maternity company

So I had a website store for maternity clothes yeah for maternity clothes because I was wearing old designer clothes and then I was like I don’t want to wear that so I started to make clothing so I had a little business okay and um and it was working so I had some

Independence not I mean not clearly what I had but that was okay that was okay and so you had just like a like a normal little home so yeah so then what happen is and is he giving you any money or no because he’s in prison and he has no

Money he he wasn’t in prison yet and I I don’t know if he was giving me money or we just had some money yeah he could see the kids sure he went to our Southampton home I stayed in our Brookville home and then about you you got to keep two homes

Just for the year oh for one year for one year and and then they took the Hampton then they took them both and then what happens a year and a half later I met my current husband how did you meet him on a blind date by the same

Woman what if it was not the same woman what if it was the same woman was a different woman that would would have been a red flag yeah yeah yeah yeah know different woman and he lives in California and he was in the Garment business too like me

So we shared that interest he had three kids still you know still does and so he said you know why don’t to move to California and I was like that is the best idea I’ve heard in a long time because I want to get my kids out of New

York I didn’t want them to deal with that Legacy of Jordan that wasn’t Theirs to carry and we moved and had a whole new Fresh Start so you moved and and started Living in this South Bay yes in the South which is like the Manhattan Beach area with your kids so they went

To school there and everything and then where was Jordan then would he just come he followed the kids oh so he then was living in California then he moved to California he’s a good dad Jordan’s a really good Dad yeah he loves his kids and my kids love him it’s really nice

And so when did the book come out and become a movie like what was going on with that and so here I am I think I’ve like escaped all of this a different last name who would know anything right knows anything California and you know my

Ex-husband God bless him he is a genius he decides to write a book while he’s in jail oh okay so I guess chich Chin chong told him to write it was his cellmate I don’t know really oh my God that’s amazing yeah yeah so he writes a book

And he shows it to me and I I’m so dramatic and I read it and I’m like what you know I call him up how could you do this he’s like I did it for us I’m like no you did it for like just say it because what did you

Not like about it the book well first of all my life with him as much fun as we had was really scary and really traumatic and and he wrote it very funny and I didn’t think it was so funny it it is a funny movie and it is funny and I

Mean with that scene of him on the Quaaludes and going down the stairs of the country club and you know and then Jonah Hill is hilarious in it as well yes yes so it throwing the little people around no I mean they were crazy and so

I just didn’t like it it wasn’t my narrative I mean it was my first response and I would like threw myself in bed and cried my husband was like it’s time to get up now yeah and then I woke you know I was like okay and then I

Accepted it I do that I have to feel my feelings Express them and then like okay I’m going to accept this and so then I decided to go back to school to be a therapist at 39 so for any of those f FES that don’t think they can have a

Career later we both know you can yeah right and and then leave it to Jordan now he’s got to make a movie with Leonardo Di cabriel and Martin sesi now did you know it was being shopped as a movie or when did or did you only know

When it was like okay it’s actually here’s the deadline article this is all cast or you it was inevitable because we we have a we have a good relationship and he would talk did you ever think that no I thought it was going to be like a lifetime movie I mean did you

Think it was going to be like Oscar Contender you know I should have known better knowing him yeah I should have known better but I was like oh it’ll never happen yeah and then sure enough it happened and it was really crazy timing because 2013 that’s when I was

Getting my doctorate and I was writing my dissertation and I had my private practice because I had my Master’s and I’m like who the hell is going to want to come to me as a therapist how can look like a crazy person but ironically the opposite happens totally because you have the

Experience you’re not someone you know yes I’m walk in it’s not like a Catholic priest giving advice on how to stay married you know it’s like well how do you know you know like you’ve been through it I’ve been through it so I was worried about that definitely for a few

Moments and I made them change my name because I they they wanted to use my name I said no I make no money I have no creative input the story is not from my perspective you can’t use my name so that’s why they didn’t use my name what

Do they call her Naomi ohom I mean that everybody knew it was me anyway but it was like my one like trying to have some Independence yeah but it’s like they pick a very similar looking girl and everything about it right yeah Mar Robbie yeah yes so um so then I you know

Paramount was nice enough they sent my husband and I to a private screening and we just were like okay you got out of the movie was it you didn’t have to spend $10 on the ticket no popcorn yeah no popcorn but we did that and then

Jordan and I took our son cuz he was a teenager CU my kids were going to the premiere anyway and I was like you know what it’s not that bad it could have been a lot worse I enjoyed the movie and um the movie came out on Christmas Day

And I have my kids Christmas morning Jordan has them in the afternoon and I could tell Jordan was feeling weird and I was like you know what why don’t you guys come over why don’t you guys come over for prime rib and cream spinach and we watched old movies of the kids the

Day the movie came out and so your husband has always been fine they have that’s so lovely when that you know when your ex can get along with your new husband and did he ever get married or have any more kids no he was engaged for n well he’s now he’s currently married

He was engaged for nine years and now he married a really lovely young woman Christina she’s great oh that’s great yeah yeah that is awesome Okay so so he is he is fine with now you telling your side of the story and you kind of explaining well fine is

A you know I think it’s been a little challenging for him but he he’s accepted it and we do have a really good relationship and we’ve always kept a good relationship for our kids yeah and I always say it in my patients like I know how hard it is to divorce a

Narcissist and deal with people like this and post-separation abuse is real but if you could figure it out and keep it civil for the kids do it it’s so important now I my I have some questions about some of the stuff that we talk about in the book narcissist first the

Love the love bombing like thing now I’m curious did Jordan do this with his last fiance and is now wife does a guy know that he’s doing it or can they grow out of it can they recognize it I think it’s part of their personality they a lot of

Them like Jordan go big or go home yeah and I think it’s the way he shows love you know I don’t think he thinks oh I’m going to love bomb her but I think it’s who he is and it’s a great tactic because it works yeah and um and like

Explain a little bit because I feel like narcissism it is a name that I think a word that I do think is being overused yes and I I believe you people can have narcissistic traits but are you really a narcissist unless you have nine of the

11 or like how do you get the how do you legally be called a narcissist without just the word be throwing because I think a lot of people get confused thinking it it means you’re vain or conceited and it’s not that yeah how would you best like describe right and

That’s that’s one of my pet peeves about uh psycho Babble right is that where’re there’s a lot of misinformation so in my book I actually don’t call the the man in the trauma bonds or narcissists I call him a pathological L because pathological means mentally unwell right so they usually have some narcissistic

Traits some Psychopathic traits usually a substance abuse disorder some compulsive processed sexual addiction so it’s a very complex personality narcissism is actually the lightest of the personality traits if they’re just a narcissist great you know that just means they’re self-absorbed grandiose um need a lot of admiration but but it’s

The mix of all of the um bad personality traits because usually they’re very hostile and antagonistic and very selfish and this is the way I say it this person will do anything to get their needs met for money pleasure power and Status they will exploit betray and

Use people that they love that’s that’s a true narcissist that’s a true yeah pathological person will do that to the people that they love right and it’s painful I mean I think people need to look at that and when they think maybe they’re with a narcissist go okay well

Then I’m probably not with one because because this person wouldn’t do that do I think that do you know like you know do they admit that they’re wrong no like never but does that mean that they want my birthday to suck like I’m watching all these things on Tik Tok and they’re

Like a narcissist will make sure that every holiday is Ru and make sure that if it’s something for you they’ll set out to like pick a fight that morning and everything and so then there’s people that I’ve thought have been kind of narcissistic in my life and then when

I go through those lists I’m like oh actually they’re not right and then I’ve had like Dr Drew say well some narcissistic traits are good you know most Pilots you kind of want the pilot flying your plane to be a little narcissistic because you want them to

Have the confidence to know that they are the best at doing this job that’s right that’s right like it’s not in some ways it can just be a very knowing that you’re very capable and believing in yourself too exactly are the good qualities but you know at the end of the

Day abuse is about control right so that’s really what happens in a trauma bond is that the person is really controlled and abused by their partner so they have to have two things for a trauma Bond they have to have a power imbalance meaning that one person holds

The power sometimes they get that power by being dominating and intimidating right and so we fear them so we’re like okay you’re in charge because they’re screaming and yelling and like you’re just like forget it fine I won’t go out to lunch with my friends right and then

The other thing is that you have to have intermittent abuse so people have this thing like it’s a cycle of abuse no if it was a cycle of abuse of easy to track it’s intermittent abuse 75% of the time they’re usually controlling abusive betraying lying manipulative 25 to 35%

Of the time they’re generous helpful and kind so it’s the mix of those two different behaviors and the intensity of them both that keep the bond and then what if you’re also intermittent doing intermittent fasting Intermediate wait inter intermittent intermittent fasting along with intermittent relationship yes so that so those are

The two things that you really need to have a trauma Bond so that’s why people now when you say trauma Bond don’t you have to bond with somebody else no you’re you’re bonding with that person traumatically oh even though they’re the one who’s causing it that’s I thought a

Trauma Bond was something like like you and I both have lived through trauma a lot of people think that yes no you’re bonded to a person who’s traumatizing you oh mhm yes now like is there is there any like I feel like when someone comes and they’re with someone like this the it’s

Always like well it’s never going to get better get out that’s that yeah but like is there is there any situation in which someone can go all right I just have to change the way I react because I I do want to stay with this person I don’t

Like these things about this person I think this person is wrong but I don’t know maybe play along and let them think they got their way I don’t know how do you how does someone do that that that what is the solution if you’re not willing to like if you’re not will get

Divorc sell your house yeah I think the solution is to really um because I think in a trauma Bond we’re very focused on the other person and I think the solution is to turn the mirror back on yourself and get really focused on yourself and if you have children

Focused on your children because if you make a choice to say and I have no judgment on any of that right then better yourself you know make sure you’re physically healthy mentally healthy get into therapy um maybe make sure you have a career so if you do want

To leave you have some Financial Independence you know I mean relationships and marriages are so complex right you know so I there’s no judgment plenty of women come to me and I we just might hold it for years till they’re ready to leave it’s not my job right when someone chooses to leave

That’s a very personal decision now unless they’re in physical danger then that’s very different but have you ever had someone where it actually where you were like this person absolutely should leave yes and they don’t but then years later it did get better or does it never really

Get better or does the guy ever change or no if it’s that extreme that I’m really thinking they should leave yeah they the guy usually doesn’t get better now does that mean that I haven’t seen men get better I have and there’s been one incident let’s talk about the one

Where the where the man realizes the woman doesn’t need him oh and he wants to change because listen I wouldn’t have be a therapist if I didn’t think people could change yeah I’m in the business of helping people change right so yeah when they realize you don’t need them

Sometimes they they change oh but they have to want to right right and that’s not up to you right exactly yeah and then what are these um you talk about the the Clusters oh yeah the cluster be Personality yeah that so that’s where narcissism uh antisocial personality disorder borderline and histrionic

Personality disorder those are the personality disorders that lend themselves to pathological people usually anti histrionic cuz I feel like that’s something that we don’t hear a lot about that um I definitely know someone who was and I was always like is this person bipolar like d d du and not

Until someone’s like I think that she’s histrionic and then sent me the stuff and I was like oh my gosh this explains everything so explain a little bit what histrionic is yeah so similar to all the cluster B personalities these people are drama to have a relationship feels dramatic and erratic they’re very

Reactive they can be very needy they can just like start to get angry at you over nothing they can need a lot of attention so yeah it’s a person that’s very dramatic and erratic in their relationships so we call them personality disorders but now people want to call them interpersonal interpersonality disorders

Because it’s not just like anxiety and depression it greatly affects the people as you’re saying like with your friend that you’re in relationship with right it affected you to be in relationship with a person like that yeah and it’s frustrating yeah right so that’s the cluster B but then they have the

Psychopathy then they have machiavellianism what is that highly manipulative like let’s look at Jordan setting me up on that date that’s highly manipulative cuz you just thought it was just like a casual dinner thing yeah so they with this girl that was supposed to be your friend yes yes and seeking you

Out and everything yes really fixated on you yeah they can be highly manipulative and then the psychopathic part is very cold very callous very insensitive if you notice they can hurt their Partners a lot betray them time and time again cheating on them with no remorse or

Empathy it’s like get over it wasn’t that bad and when a cheater is like that like Get over like is it is it like get over it because I own a helicopter or because I’m rich or like what is like I I do think there’s women that you know accept cheating or whatever

Because they’re like yeah but as long as you don’t bring her home and you don’t bring her around and you don’t have a baby with her I’m just going to compartmentalize because I do have this fabulous life like I’ve had people that I that you know I’ve talked to girls and

They’re like I just told her look around look around deal with it you know like women who are married to like you know hundred million whatever dollar people yeah and I mean it’s not what I would want you know um it’s not what I could deal with I don’t think because it’s

Like it’s like the trust of like yeah I’m just supposed to not know where you are or um I mean like what about those type of people what about a woman that has you ever had a woman that comes to you and is like listen my husband cheats he

Has I’m just trying to find a way that I can still love and respect him because I don’t want to leave like how oh yeah I would just feel like you’re like like playing an actress like how are you supposed to want to sleep with this person or even enjoy a conversation when

You’re like I hate you you’re cheating with this girl yeah yeah yeah I mean I think a lot of women stay out of fear emotional dependency Financial dependency but also the thing about a trauma bond is Hope is the hook they think that maybe they’re going to change

Or maybe they’ll recognize their ways and you know usually they don’t but what happens in this relationship is the woman’s very confused because remember he has two masks he’s good and he’s bad so then she starts to think is he really bad or is he really

Good am I crazy or is this relationship normal wait is a relationship bad is it good so she has something called cognitive dissonance where she’s always confused about is he good am I good am I bad is he good is relationship good and that’s really confusing and what the

Research shows and that’s what I write about in my book it shuts off your EXA excutive functioning like you really can’t think and plan and organize when you’re so confused internally right it’s very you know and that’s why people say oh she should leave it’s very we’re talking about very complex psychological

Topics yeah you know I um I saw this thing where this woman asked her husband it was on a Tik Tok yeah and he’s like he probably like late 60s 70s and she’s like I just want to ask you you know why do think men cheat and

He’s like well you know I’ve worked with men all my life which lets me tell you he’s probably Finance something that’s a lot of men yes and he goes and there’s this thing back in my day called Big Man on Campus okay men want to feel like

They’re the Big Man on Campus yeah and it it’s it’s with them it’s not the wife it’s not because their wife isn’t sleeping with them enough or being sweet enough or pretty enough it’s that when they’re is that somebody at work or somebody outside their home makes them

Once again feel like the quarterback feel like the Big M cus either they maybe were once at one time or they never were and that is why then they pursue someone yeah well I have two thoughts on that yeah one is that um men like that want to be admired but I try

To teach them love is not admiration and a lot of times they feel entitled to it and they feel Superior yeah they really there’s a great book why does he do that by linday bankr who’s a total expert in this field he’s worked with these men

For 30 years and he says it quite simply they feel entitled and Superior and especially if they’re really successful yeah I should get what I want when I want it I make this much money yeah but not thinking doesn’t mean that I want to leave my wife right doesn’t mean she’s

Not lovely and wonderful but but but I W but I want this need met right now I want this ego fed right so if we go will do anything to get their needs met right at their partner’s expense but not understanding that there’s another person on the side of that that loves

Them that’s that has feelings for them but if their feelings are shallow in general they they can’t relate to it they don’t have empathy for their wives um you know I have I’ve know somebody and um her husband she didn’t on her married the woman and really his

Life I mean she turned to be absolutely awful awful I mean and just the worst it’s over with now and I said to her I go I gotta know you know and she’s still so lovely inviting him over for Christmas being great about the kids and

Then this the second wife made her life hell unnecessarily okay but I said now has he ever just said God did I up cuz my friend is still gorgeous fabulous now she now she’s met the next love of her life whatever but like she was never

Going to get divorced she was still down to have sex and and work make money be a delight decorate the like everything along and it was really an egoo thing where who knows what but this woman came she was a patient of his and she just latched on yeah like just completely

Latched on hooked into him convinced him manipulate him everything and then contined to manipulate him and cause problems with his kids and everything for all the years until now she’s gone but like you know she said he did he did finally say something he said like

Um he’s like I just want to say you know you’ve just been so great and you didn’t have to be because I know I put you through hell a I thought that was kind of nice I wanted I wanted a little more DET I wanted him to really say what the

Hell did I do a little more accountability I mean but I got to say but for years I’ve been like he’s got to be like why the did I yes cheat yeah maybe and then end up with this awful person I know and you just don’t

Know you know at least you know what you got when you’re married I mean but have you had many men or women that say that they the men do then say God why did I do that like had I just stayed with the first so there’s not many that go God why didn’t

I just stay with this the first wife cuz I sometimes I see these men right yeah so they have the the the first wife they have the kids and everything they cheat get divorced and then they meet the girl that’s 20 years younger and she acts

Like oh I love our life I’m a nice stepmother oh no I never want to have kids and then sure enough they’re married and she’s like I got to have kids so now he’s got two little kids and he’s 57 years old and he has two little

Kids with a second wife and the and the other ones are like finally going to college and I’m like I just see some of those guys walking around with like a newe brace at Disneyland and they’re like sweating and I’m like is it really that fun with this one

It’s literally the same thing except that you’re 30 years older I know I know you know I say I just say like I’m at like the grandparents stage right now with my husband we’ve been together 24 years and trust me marriage is marriage right hasn’t been perfect but we’ve

We’ve made it through and I say to people if you could just stay in it that’s what I say it’s so beautiful to be at this stage right now with our grandkids and all of our kids together I have a three-month-old grandson and a three-year-old and from your daughter my

Daughter just had a baby okay and then my stepdaughter had a baby and it is much fun and the family holidays and the vacations you know and there is something about family well I mean that’s the thing I’ve always said like to people I’m always like do you see yourself babysitting your grandkids

Together with this man yes and if that’s what you want not that you should have to put up with abuse or anything of but you know like just take a breath yes suck it up marriage is someone said also too like marriage doesn’t mean you’re you’re guaranteed happiness every day

It’s a journey no yeah I always some say say to my patients if you don’t hate your husband today you’re not in a good marriage yeah I mean it’s it is work you know and and that’s that’s different like so we call that situational Coupes violence or is that I think that’s what

It’s called yeah and that’s different than like or situational couples fights like that’s different than a trauma bonds right okay so like we all fight we all fight about what car to buy how much money to spend how much sex we’re having I mean these are Comm domestic there’s

Just domestic stuff too we disagree on right like shut the door or my husband’s like you’re too easy on our son he’s going to not be strong enough meanwhile he’s awesome right so those are typical fights and we all have to figure out how to communicate and work through those

Right but that’s different than the sort of thing that I’m writing about that’s why I put run like hell because if you’re with a coercively controlling abusive betraying person who has a pattern of that and substance abuse and all the things that go along with that

It’s good to get out if you can and and I believe too that like just because he was you know you had your situation with him yes 25 years later or whatever um based on who he gets with now U or married with like I have this other

Friend and they had an awful marriage and they had the same birthday not that I’m into like astronomy but I did think that was kind of weird maybe like it just I don’t know it’s not meant to be just too much like very compatative very

Compa K they have two kids they break up he gets married to somebody else has another kid and she’s like when you go over there like what’s it like like do they fight or anything and the daughter was like no like they don’t huh and I

Don’t also I don’t think it was all his fault I do think sometimes it’s just an awful combination and sometimes you just find someone the second time around that’s just it doesn’t mean you’re going to have the same relationship every time you know or doesn’t mean that if this

Guy was this way with this woman like that you should be like oh well definitely don’t date him you know like I mean give him a chance I guess it’s providing it’s not you know right providing it’s not too extreme and one of the reasons also why I write wrote my

Book is also for like young women to educate them right because when I left my ex-husband nobody was talking about trauma bonds and narcissist none of it I was like totally in the woods on my own right and so I also offered this as a guide to young women because we need to

Learn about relationships we learn about reading writing right math nobody teach us about relationships and they’re the total Foundation of our lives right and they’re the most important thing that’s what they’re what makes life worth living as far as I’m concerned and so I want to educate young women too what to

Look out for yeah exactly it’s very important before you end up in all these complicated things what about um have you found that when people do get divorced I I guess it’s all different times but I always find it really interesting when someone’s like oh I knew as I was

Walking down the aisle yes that I shouldn’t do it yes and that was me so you you had the doubts I had that I had the doubts because the night before he was yeah wasted yeah well I did a Tik Tok about it where I talk about where we

Got engaged where did you get engaged in uh Brooklyn in front of this my favorite fast food restaurant called rolling roer yeah sheep said Bay and we’re in his Ferrari and he whips out this five karat diamond and he gives it to me and I do

You want to marry me I say yes but inside my stomach said uh oh yeah and I totally ignored my gut right well I was going to France on the Concord so yeah I mean I think it I think all of that fun and fabulousness

Yes made me ignore going be very or or anything what it is the wedding’s planned or you’re of an age that you’re like I really want to be a mom that’s true so true for so many women yeah yeah and they’re like well it’s now or never

Like and I’ve even had people be like I was like hey well maybe I’ll be divorced at 40 with a four-year-old but at least I’ll have a four-year-old at least I’ll have tried or whatever because half the people get divorced anyway so who’s to say right I don’t know I mean sometimes

Maybe it is okay to yeah take the leap or whatever but and I mean who’s ever going to totally know you never really know you never really know but there are red flags now that I now illuminate you know like look out for these if you see

Them what are some of the top red flags before we wrap up yeah so substance abuse um if they tell you their ex was the craziest person in the world if they don’t respect your boundaries if they want to monopolize all your time so there are there are things what if they

Want to thre some initially might be an issue yeah we could do that maybe 10 years down the road you know but like sex should be good and healthy in the beginning I just saw that the prime minister of Italy she’s a female attractive woman looks

Like maybe she’s in her 40s or something um and hot boyfriend she said they they story is they broke up because he wanted a threesome and a foursome and it was like recorded or whatever and I’m like you are the running a country how do you

Your man is still like um can you go down on this girl while I watch like what the hell like I don’t have enough to do in my life that’s that then she admitted that I this is the this was like on TMZ or I saw the story I saw the

Story and I read just the headline oh boy but it was that they broke up and I guess allegedly the rumor is this is the reason why but she said we’re just going our separate ways or whatever yes okay but I’m like it’s it’s a crazy world we

Live matter if you’re like running a country or if you’re just a housewife and I think that’s like a really beautiful point to mention is that and I that’s why one of the reason I wrote my book is that let’s stop blaming the woman it doesn’t matter if

She’s the most beautiful actress if she’s a housewife if she’s a teacher no matter who she is it happens to everyone and everybody right it just does so stop saying she’s codependent she’s this she’s that no she’s just a person on the planet that wants to be loved and ends

It up with the wrong person or when people are like I can’t believe I believed this con man who might be stealing your money but or also cheating or be a con man of Love okay right I can’t believe I’m so stupid I’m so stupid why would you why do you no

You’re not stupid right why is it wrong to believe that someone thought you were fabulous and that someone was into you and that like why would you’re lovable why is that why shouldn’t you believe that someone’s intentions are good exactly because your intentions are good well that’s you’re walking out on the

World being a happy person and a good person so then why would you think not everybody would be a good person exactly that’s exactly what happens we start to see the world through our lands and we think everybody else sees the world that way but they don’t yeah but they don’t

Yeah well I’m really excited um that you came here it’s run like hell nen Macaluso that Italian yeah I married a crazy Sicilian oh nice and you tell everybody where they can pre-order the book yeah you can go to Amazon and pre-order the book and um how can they

Follow you cuz you yep they can see me on the real Dr naen on Instagram I post every single day about all this stuff I’ve been doing it since 2012 I think and now I got this crazy fowe on Tik Tok good and that’s Dr Nay n lmft and I only

Did that because one of my young patients was like you have to go on Tik Tok is it great great it’s great and I’m glad I did yeah it’s a lot of fun well I’m I so glad you came thanks Heather I’m glad you’re a juicy scooper too oh I

Am a serious juicy scooper I need it after all my serious days as a therapist good that’s what I like I like it’s that you know it’s it’s a nice little Escape you know it really is good it really is it works thanks Heather thank you