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#cycling #bikes #bicycle
Would you rather have continued Innovation or cheaper bikes this is off the back of last week’s question about bike stuff being expensive one of the reasons given for prices going up is Tech advancements I think this is very easy to answer go on then I do not care about
Bike Innovation bikes are Way Beyond what they need to be already there is no more Innovation needed they are fast they are light they do they have electric gears if you want them they can literally do anything you want them to do we don’t need them to do
More stuff what we need is more access to this technology make it cheaper make it more accessible have easier ways for people to get into cycling and spend more time working on the ebike space so that even more people again can ride bikes that’s where the Innovation should
Be do you think it it is that not already happen happening because we’ve picked up bikes for 300400 now which are incredibly good don’t need that much servicing our light are fast relatively and the trickle down of that Tech is the reason why they are good um not the electric gears and stuff
Because that clearly isn’t trickling down but the you know it’s the same companies making it I think the 1,000 to 3,000 bike should be the 300 bike 1,000 to 3,000 should actually be 300 to 1,000 what do you mean well like the bike if you’re if you got a bike off
A shelf for £2,000 yeah it isn’t worth £22,000 it should probably cost £400 £500 and I think that’s the problem I I guess you’re I guess you’re arguing that you need the Innovation to have an excuse for older Tech that’s good to become cheaper yeah but you don’t you need lower marketing budgets
And or to not waste huge amounts of money on marketing and tens of millions of pounds on R&D that doesn’t actually achieve anything it’s a result of capitalism again down to that oh yeah absolutely yeah absolutely but my my opinion is we don’t need any more inovation bikes are they don’t need to
Be better they’re at a ridiculous level already there is a ridiculous level isn’t it especially when you think of some of the stuff we see at the hill climb like if you go like well Innovation gets lighter bikes well there’s there’s already bikes that are 4
And a half kilos yeah and and arguably function like normal bikes or can if you make a couple of tweaks you could have a bike that’s five kilos if you wanted to that fully functions like a normal road bike what’s your prediction of do do you have in mind what Innovation would look
Like within the next 10 15 years no Nick reckons things will start going internal that’s that’s his prediction so you know like classified Hub then you’ll get which is a um a hub gear but you can still fit a cassette to it that’s all you know inside the Hub
Sealed you know there’s been some people have had issues with them but like the Shimano alfine and the stery Archer style hubs the planetary gears they’re getting better and better what if that gets put inside the bottom bracket and then it’s all sealed away and then you’re not getting weather affected you know
Things aren’t getting affected by weather as much that’s his sort of vision of like oh yeah bikes will be all clean and you won’t see any of the mechanical parts anymore but really is the is maintaining that much of an issue at the moment you’re you’re saying no no
And also if you were to do that it would either have to become a lot heavier so that’s that’s probably a space that’s useful for ebikes because then you’re actually venturing into like e motorbike space and actually just hiding everything away because it can be hidden
Away but it’s heavier but it has a motor and therefore it all balances out um I think he’s he’s definitely talked about drivve trains disappearing into bikes but I think Tech like that already exists like there’s that um I think it’s a German company that do a oilbased
Internal Hub motor that sits in your bottom bracket and it’s just like a full range of Gears that are just fully internal everything’s in oil so it just doesn’t ever well basically never needs any maintenance anyway and it’s belt drive yeah so the only thing you change
Is the belt and the belt lasts something like 20,000 miles or something out yeah yeah you just change him when you when you just carry a spare with you if you’re riding around the world belt drive people like they like that but then the the problem with that system is
Like if you wanted to have a a a smashup with your mates and changing gear is just bit crappy currently but I don’t think it I don’t think it actually is like I know a guy I used to work with a guy who was uh a senor ior executive in a finance company
In the city of London so I think you can probably guess the kind of money he had and I think he spent about 15 grand building this custom and this would have been best part of a decade ago um a custommade titanium belt drive bike that
Still had 20 odd gears that he was going to use to race his mates up I think it was Al Duz or something rather yeah and like it weighed something like 7 kilos so it was light he it was a big bike as well and it had all of this stuff in and
All like all of the gears internal and you know that that Tech’s there it’s been there for ages yeah yeah and it’s getting more and more efficient I classified is the first example of that but then obviously you get loads of people like this I hate this you know
Like it’s people have a real problem with it some people just hate Innovation don’t they if I think hating it for the sake of hating it is a is a good a good stance I don’t think they hate Innovation they hate change that’s that’s the Beast that every like oh
Everyone’s forcing me to buy it and it’s like no one’s really forcing you to buy it but things do change like so so I think if we go down the route of innovation of vibration reduction a lot like there’s already lots of really good products which contribute to vibration reduction like
Suspension and Massive Tires Tires and tire pressures you know there there in theory is more Innovation that could be had but do we need it do we need that Innovation if it costs 100 million pounds to develop over the next 10 years allowing more expensive products to come
Well red shift there you go there’s products there already that that deal with lots of uh vibration dampening I I don’t think like bikes work really well like motorbike you do think they work well bikes work really well across all of different disciplines then you then go into motorbikes which work really
Really well so if you if you know like you start looking at what other Industries can you lend from and things like that and make bikes more comfortable or Venture into the ebike space ultimately no we don’t need more Innovation we need cheaper stuff that’s got better access to I’ll tell you what
Innovation I would love to see is um obviously Dynam exist but that technology going further so that you can properly power stuff on your bike using the electricity you generate or even like your turbo being able to power stuff so like for example I would never ever convert to electronic
Shift in because I already have too many things in my life that I need to charge and it really stresses me out having to remember to charge all of the stuff and it’s the same as like oh I’ll just get this electronic bike pump and then you
Have to remember to charge that and all your just too much electric watches and then I never remember to charge them they stay off all the time so if there could be like a proper function on your bike which again might add weight but then as Innovation proves things get
Lighter and all of that kind of stuff to like properly create a power source through your bike to charge your stuff well even that Tech is it already exists yeah but yeah you can say everything exists on the fringes but surely the point is that it gets picked up and it
Becomes part of a bike that you can buy off a shelf that’s surely part of the Innovation the same way that you know disc brakes probably always existed on motorbikes but were never really a thing on bikes and now any shop you walk into
You can pick a bike off the shelf and it that’s part of innovation isn’t it I’m I’m going to um represent old people have less Tech then and then you don’t need to charge things I do agree yeah I’m not I’m not talking that at you specifically just like if if you need
Something that charges have less stuff that needs charging no I agree I agree and we actually get comments on that under like videos when I remember like when you did the electric pump people are like the the more Reliance on electronics you have it also creates more waste as well and like batteries
Don’t live forever and you’re almost creating a solution into a problem that doesn’t exist because you already have a hand pump but you’re creating more need for electricity which is you know using Fuel and all of that kind of stuff MH so who thinks what I think don’t care about Innovation want
Cheaper stuff I think one leads to another I think what you’re you’re stifling the top end will result in a slower production of Cheaper good bikes and I don’t know what like they already exist we’ve just bought 300 50 bikes and they’ve been fantastic never been better that’s a really fair
Price so you’re saying you want Innovation because it will lead to cheaper stuff yeah this is how the world Works Emily I think it’s just inevitable I think if there was no innovation we would not have anything else to talk about on our podcast anymore please more Innovation please and also makes Emily’s
Job easier capitalism makes the world go around there’s they always have to have stuff to talk about and therefore whether you like it or not it’s going to continue people inventing creating new things is a an amazing is a fantastic thing and I don’t think that should be scoffed at
Stifled in any way can I ask a question yes how cheap do you think a cheap bike should be what do you think is the lowest figure that it should cost someone to buy a ridable good bike secondhand or new just just new like if someone goes like you
Know what I’m going to get a bicycle how much should it cost stop being distracted by the dog it’s a really hard question it’s a very hard question Jimmy I I would like bikes to cost 50 but there’s just I just don’t see how how you could ever make manufacture a
Bike for 50s with the amount of metal and stuff that’s involved in it it would just be cheese wouldn’t it yeah and that’s that’s the that’s the annoying you asking where the line is of what like I I guess your original question was how much should it cost versus how
Much do you actually need to pay in in terms of like accessibility you know like if someone’s like it’s such a good mode of Transport it’s good for the environment it should be more accessible but you can I think with 50 pounds you can buy a bike which you can get around
Town and solve those immediate problems with but it’s probably secondhand yeah it’s recycl your bike yeah going to there’s a shop nearby us called recycle your bike who do up bikes and sell them on and you know you’re going to get a ridable safe mode of Transport I reckon 50 to1 we
Should go and do a video about it if you if you spend 200 you’re getting like a performance thing you’re getting a really good bike really good bike and if you spend £350 it’s you’re in you’re in Hobby mode right it’s a different thing does the the problem become as well that I
Noticed this with like my parents and my grandparents as you become older you don’t really understand the value of money anymore it’s meant to be the other way around no but like people always talk about inflation and stuff and I do think that prices outweigh inflation but also like5 pound
When I was little had a lot of value and I feel like you can’t really get anything for5 pounds yeah your brain doesn’t catch up in the same way does it like I think my first have a bike as a kid cost like20 and we got it we had we
Saw an ad in the newspaper and picked it up in Newcastle and I had like it was like it was probably a mountain bike or a hybrid or something like that and I Rod it Lords and I don’t maybe that does exist now I don’t know it’s I don’t know
Whether it’s age or just been in the industry so long but I think the value was it new or secondhand it was secondhand so like right okay yeah but I would never have changed anything on it I don’t even think I would have cleaned it and it it still broad yeah it still
Moved still pedal went round okay so I’ve worked out this is why gu it’s not even controversial I know where Innovation needs to happen The Innovation needs to happen in the secondary Market there needs to be better stuff happening like maybe the big brands should like take in
Secondhand bikes re fix them up themselves and then get them to people sell them actually sell imagine I don’t know a big Bri brand Scott actually had like a secondhand Market on their own website Sal you know so you you upgrade your bike kind of like phones yeah it’s
Just like phones so you’ve got your bike you want to upgrade it you give your bike back they give you some money for it you that comes off of your you basically you know part exchange it for a better bike and then that one they’ve
Got back they tied it up clean it and then sell it on the secondary Market so they’ll still make money but it’ll get to someone much cheaper particularly as a lot of a lot of bikes are repairable mhm carbon’s repairable yep Alo you might struggle steel bik’s fine y titanium is
Fine everything can be fixed but there is an obsession of like new new new isn’t there yes we’ve been hesitant to make a video on secondhand stuff because it’s a hard topic to it’s a big topic to cover in a video because there’s all the problems of is something stolen where’s it come
From is it safe to ride you know there’s a lot of is the frame cracked think yeah exactly and it’s very hard to say yes you can you know the only real advice we can give is go to a place like recyc your bike or Cycle Exchange if you’re
Looking for a more high-end thing where the people check it over where professionals check it first and give you a warranty exactly so if something does go wrong you can just take it back we we we will work out how to explore that space because we we’ve wanted to
For a long time but we’re just very cautious to not give advice which is which gets people into a scenario which is not good exactly recycle your bike 50 P challenge 50 I challenge you I would love it if it was doable
36 Comments
Interesting discussion. The problem is that a good e-bike, a fun one, is just silly expensive!
I want one, but can't pay 5000 pounds for a bicycle. They are therefore impossible to own. The price needs to come down – a lot.
Innovation is great as long as it is innovation going in the right direction. All the innovations being made are innovations towards winning races. Less than 0.5% of cyclists need that kind of innovation. In a top level race where athletes are already at or near the limit of human physical abilities, a 50gm difference in bike weight or a 1% reduction in the drag coefficient could mean the difference between first and second place in a two hour race. For the rest of us, those numbers are irrelevant.
What we need is innovation that lowers the price of bikes while maintaining quality and longevity. Carbon fiber bikes are very light and stiff, but they do not have longevity. But they are used a bike frame material anyway. Why? Because all race bikes (whether carbon fibre or steel or any other material) are assumed to be damaged and should be disposed of after a multiday race such as the Tour De France. Thus, carbon fibre as a bike frame material is acceptable in a race where the bike will be discarded soon after the end of the tour. But carbon fiber for ordinary cyclists is a ghastly idea. They are not cheap. They are not recyclable. They are not durable. But bike companies pushed them to ordinary cyclists anyway by the strategy of marketing and reducing buyer's choice.
As another example, bike companies successfully convinced us to get rid of our trusty mechanical brakes and replace them with complicated disk brakes. Their reason is not engineering. Rim brakes can be mechanical but disc brakes have to be hydraulic to match the stopping ability of a mechanical braking surface on the rim of the wheel. Their real reason is simplification of their assembly line by having only one facility required to produce brakes for both MTB and RB bicycles. And of course the chance to charge a premium for a more complicated contraption.
TLDR: Yes, the bike companies are ripping us off.
They are just profiting of our collective stupidity- that’s all. No need to assign blame
To answer the question:YES 👍😝
Buy a used bike if you don't like it.
"I don't like progress. I think as you get older, you find it isn't progress; it's only change, and isn't change always for the better. You find out it don't stand up." -Jack Taylor (legendary bicycle builder)
90% of carbon frames are made in China or Taiwan. There is not one frame that costs more than £500 to produce!. So where does £13.000 plus come from?.
Cycling is the new golf!. Of course we are going to get ripped off. Rupert and Tarquin would sooner set their heads on fire than be seen riding a Decathlon or Boardman etc.
Buy a Chinese bike if you’re concerned about bicycle prices. Quit whining.
"How much should a basic-but-good bike cost"?
Walk into Halfords. Go past the cheapest ones, everyone knows they'll be rubbish. Go to 50% more than that. That's where Joe Public expect the "basic-but-good" stuff to start.
Proprietary hardware makes things difficult. Ebikes are cool but manufacturers want exclusively.. E-bikes need to work together to have more common parts and sustainable. If you have 2-3 e-bikes there are 2-4 different chargers and batteries.
Older (simpler) bikes are wonderful and easier to maintain. I love my steel frame internal gear hub bikes, especially the one with a belt drive. Recycle bike shops have small margins of profits so it’s important for customers to be kind and understanding when there might be a higher cost to 2nd hand parts.
There are too many rich idiots buying brand new bikes, and shitting their old bikes out to the second market…. When I can pick up a light ally bike up from my LBS for £170, why would I buy a new one?
Continued innovation, that’s how things get cheaper. there’s room for everything.
Corporations employ people to find ways to extract more $ from consumers. That's what they do.
The bike industry is worse than the car biz for designed obsolescence and creating dissatisfaction with last years model. It's capitalism at its worst/finest.
I agree….
Bikes are way too expensive and are prohibiting more people from joining the movement.
$7K to $15K for a bike is totally insane!
Innovation serves the industry now. When it gets to only brand bike shops can work on the bike it will be completed
It's crazy how conservative Jimmy is! But the debate between Jimmy and Francis is interesting. I think that Francis could be a little more assertive, so that the debate will be more fun. I feel like Francis holds it in. One reason could be that he behaves as a host to Jimmy. One other reason being that he doesn't want to antagonize his friend on air. I'm sure those debates are more fun offline!!! Love the podcast and your work though. It's not a hate message. Just some thoughts. And they're probably very wrong ahah
Says the guy selling £100 jerseys
Building and riding bikes for 20+ years… you are so spot on! Keep it up!
Bikes over complicated poor components and over priced
Well Gambacicli just ripped me off……Lost my product, but apparently somehow that's my fault and that's their reasoning for 'no refund'…..how about that for customer satisfaction!?!@?
bikes are super cheap. you dont need all that shit
Before introducing a new model, these bikes should have a life cycle, like a 10-year gap. Make bikes accessible, and mass produce them so they get cheaper. I just saw DOGMA X, and it costs $16K. That's more than a motorcycle or close to a Honda Civic. Crazy expensive. The bike should be around. $3 to $4K at maximum.
This whole thing with these $1,500 bicycles mystifies me and that's probably on the cheap, United States I like to just buy an old '90s chromoly or aluminum frame of good quality build off of that with some components and just have a regular daily rider
Maintenance on current typical bikes is 100% an issue. The service intervals are way too high. I cannot ride my bike a few 100 km without cleaning/oiling/fiddling with something. That is a joke. What is the service interval for a much more complicated and higher stressed motorcycle or car? And what does that service look like?
"continued innovation" = planned obsolescence
Also, eBikes aren't bicycles. f**k 'em.
These bike company share holders are just laughing. 😂
No, cycling companies aren't ripping off anybody.
There are just too many dumb cycling too willing to spend silly money on delusions.
Absolutely putting disc break and cheap group set on entry levels bikes and charging 1800 dollars plus is outrages… like the Allez series in particular.. it’s a rip off
I just can't justify paying several thousand dollars for something I provide 100% of the power…
Nah just give me something with a motor for those prices.
If I want t workout/sweat I just go for a jog at high intensity
The guy is so clueless. You should work for 10% of what you get. Please never let this guy talk
Totally agree….self charging, fit and forget, compatability between groupsets, batteries, even built in contact routing within frames negating cables, not to mention electronic brakes like Blake did on GMBN!! X% will go on energy production but making electronic components easier to fit and use than cable.
lol, i said it should be 50 lbs as well
I agree with him completely! The bike industry needs to calm the f*ck down! Seeing them have to discount their products because they didn't have the foresight to see the bubble popping and their greed… they deserve what's happening when a decent mtb is over $5k due to "decent" components and the same can be said for road bikes. A top of the line bike sitting around 5 figures? Seriously?! Its a f*cking bike! Not a car or motorcycle. Bikes still (outside of ebikes) offer the same functionality. The part of change that I hate is the price as well as how quickly they adapt to the latest and greatest… we're not all pro-racers. Options are nice, but not when they become out dated so quickly at the expense of the latest gimmick.
Bikes have not gotten better since 2008-2010. E-bikes can’t evolve because they are regulated with speed restrictions.
4.5kg bikes are the ones from 2008. Scott addict RC, cannondale supersix evo etc.