China Cycling on Factor’s New Factory, Cheap Carbon Lay-Ups and Counterfeit Frames

Counterfeit frames, main stream brands using open mould design and the cycling industry is BOOMING in China. Just some of the topics we discuss with Cycling insiders, YouTuber and owner of Panda Podium online retail outfit, Joe Whittingham.

Chapters:
00:00 intro
00:23 What Is An “Open Mould”?
08:22 Does Carbon Lay Up Matter?
13:08 Froome’s Tour Of Factor Factory
17:27 Chinese Groupsets in 2024
24:10 Counterfeit Frames
33:20 Who’s Buying From China?
40:31 Chinese Market Booms!
46:45 China Cycling YouTube
1:00:01 Hottest Items On Panda Podium
1:05:25 Avoiding Industry Snipers

Check Out Panda Podium: https://www.pandapodium.cc

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Footage courtesy of
@ChinaCycling
@chris-froome

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Welcome to a really special episode of the Nero Show featuring Joe from China cycling today we’re going to talk about counterfeit frames how Brands make changes to the shared molds they use what trends he’s seeing on the ground in China both domestically and in the industry and he gives us a really

Interesting Insight using his data from Panda Podium on who’s actually buying a lot of these Chinese products all right let’s get into it can you talk about the mold stuff cuz I find that really interesting we hear like you hear this Frame open mold and the uh Brands share

Molds and all and and all that kind of stuff what is what is the reality of that are you do you physically because we’ve seen the the images of you know the molds is it is it something like you you buy a licensing agreement for a

Certain number of um uses of that of that mold and then that brand another brand will come along and go oh yeah we like that mold as well can can we use that for 5,000 molds as well is that is that kind of how what’s this there’s a

Bit of everything so uh open mold is usually so this Factory has this Frame and anyone can come along and Order however many they want of it and they’ll slap your logo on it and and and and sell it to you basically that’s more of like your traditional open mold in the

Sense but any other thing that happens let’s say this Factory let’s say they develop frames for like let’s say they produce frames sorry for like five or six different brands and lots of the brands especially the Chinese Brands but also some of the some of the overseas Brands like the more Boutique brands

That we we think of and stuff like they don’t actually have their own R&D that’s that good like they just like their head office might just be for marketing there’s not much R&D there and so lots of the R&D happens at the factory level so what will happen the factory

Themselves will uh reach out to some frame designers like in Italy or wherever and they’ll get them every year to design them like five different frames then the factory will have these frame designs and they’ll work on the layup for it and stuff and they’ll like

Develop the frame so by the end of it they’ll they’ll maybe just develop one size at first and make a sample but they’ll have all specs of the frame the weight of it etc etc and then basically they’ll probably go through the pecking order of their customers from the

Customer who places the most orders first they’ll take their best frame to him first and say yo we’ve got this Frame would you like to buy this Frame uh for use next year and so if if their quantity is high then if sorry if their production quantity is high they won’t

Even sell have to sell it to them they’ll just let you use it for free cuz the factor is going to make money on you selling the frame but lower down the pecking order when your production units is less and less like they’ll sell you the rights to use this Frame and maybe

If you’ve not if the brand is a small Niche brand then they can just uh buy the rights to sell the frame in just their country for less money and in the factory they can sell the rights to use this mold to like seven different Brands maybe like a small Niche Danish brand

And then a small French brand and a small American brand they can all have exclusive rights to use this mold have this frame in in their country and so lots of Factories do this and I guess that’s would be more what you call like a shared a shared mold uh and yeah so

The factories will just every year have this lineup of frames and go like and see who they can sell it to with the goal of obviously getting everyone to build more frames W with that example um just out of curiosity what what sort of volume are we are you looking at for

These smaller level frames is it like they’re buying a thousand or is that is that really small would you would you have to be 10,000 to be in that b Park I uh if you want to share a mold in one country you’re probably looking at even

Like just annual annual orders of like 2 to 300 is is probably enough to get like exclusive rights for your country the upshot of this is that uh when you look at especially these Niche uh like more Boutique Brands you’ll see lots of frames that look the same and people

Will say like oh it’s just an open mold frame like it’s not really an open mold frame but okay the brand probably didn’t develop it uh but the I I checked our last podcast and the most replayed section was when I said if it looks like

If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then it’s a duck so yeah I’ll I’ll refer back to my previous statement but it also sometimes work where if you have a small Niche brand let’s say you have a small American brand and they do have a good R&D team

And they’re uh you know they’re um they’re selling it just in America or whatever like their the factory maybe they have another Italian brand customer or whatever when they’re visiting the factory one day they might say oh that’s a nice frame uh go talk to that brand

For me and tell them ask them if I can use this Frame and every time I sell one I’ll give them $50 or whatever and so this happens as well so sometimes you do have a frame that’s developed by a small brand in comp in country X and then the

Same Factory one of their other customers sees it likes it and then the factory acts as like a middleman cuz it’s win-win for the factory they don’t have to open another mold they can just make more units and so yeah they’ll have an a nice system where uh brand B is

Praying brand a royalties to use their uh mold and stuff so let’s say the two these two companies or two brands are using the same mold they’re ultimately going to sell them as Different Bikes is there wiggle room in terms of the way these are laid up and built because we

Talk about this a lot Jesse like you know the layup and how that affects the ride and the the weight and the feel and the stiffness Etc so even though they’re using the same mold is there is there variation in in the way the actual production process happens that that

Ultimately will give you a different bike even though it’s essentially the same mold so uh the factory always wants the easy life and have all the customers using the same layup and stuff but like the customers when I say customers I mean like the brands sorry because they’re the

Factories customer likeand they might have different requirements and might have be selling the frame at totally different prices and therefore they can afford uh totally different costs for production um you know if we’re talking about the actual carbon fiber you know like t700 T800 one square meter cost

Like 30 REM and B which I guess is like uh what’s 30 REM B three like fiveish dollars whereas t1100 costs 20 times more so like $100 so just using a small piece of T100 or whatever like put up the cost a whole bunch but if you’re

Selling the frame for twice as much that extra bit of cost is nothing so there will be some differences in layup and then also I think the biggest one which is a bit of a a shady area in my opinion is like QC standards like different brands have different QC standards and

Then this opens the door for some bad things to happen so let’s say you you’re producing the same frame for four customers one has high QC standards one has so so QC standard one has low QC standards you know what’s going to happen all of the best frames are going

To go to this guy all of the air frames are going to go to this guy and all the the drgs are going to go to this guy so that’s such an underrated com like yes sorry didn’t mean interrupt but that’s nailed it so yeah happens a lot with

Lots lots of things as well uh and like sometimes it’s generally just like the appearance like it’s not affecting the the quality and I’d say like while I say like QC standards like I’m not saying that the bottom stuff is dangerous stuff but it just me you know there’d be

There’d be you know imperfections in the carbon or or you know it’s uh been been rub it’s been they called I don’t even know the English for when they sand down the frame sometimes they sand too much and go through a layer that they shouldn’t go through like it’s not

Dangerous but it looks bad and it’s not it’s a less than ideal as R would say what’s the Chinese what’s the Chinese or the Mandarin for it Cham like now I can look at the frame go Cham just on the bunch just Cham that’s the that’s the new that’s

The new it’s a dog of a bike Jesse just staying on the the layup chat I just want your personal opinion there’s a bit of um discussion now around how the frames actually ride and you’ll hear it so Patrick Leno who’s reviewed a lot of the the the the

Chinese bikes he’s reviewed them all and he kind of Compares them to each other and then he got on a giant Propel and he’s like yeah this blows everything out of the water what do you have any if you’ve ridden any of these brands are there any of these sort of Chinese

Brands you think do compete ride quality wise with a western brand do you think a lot of them compete what’s what’s the cream of the crop of the the Chinese frames if you’ve ridden them yeah yeah I think it’s I think it’s also pretty tough as well for several reasons so uh

Number one I think like it’s always give and take right so if you want ride quality you you usually going to be losing some some performance uh in in terms of stiffness um obviously there’s there optimizations you can do where you can have a bit of both but it’s usually

A trade-off like so many things in Engineering in general but especially in frame design is a is a trade-off you can’t have your cake and E it so like um yeah when someone talks about ride quality like I think ride quality is less about like the raw materials that

You use and more about how you use them and I definitely think like bigger Brands they’ll put more time into just refining the layup so you know uh I think the the Chinese factories they have lots of experience with carbon fiber and they can make you mathematically or physically the most

Optimized frame layup but it may not have the ride qualities that certain cyclists like and again this is another bag of worms because a different cyclist like different ride qualities and B what feels fast and what rides fast is totally different and like I did my sub

Six for6 I made that toell uh a few weeks ago and that bike feels boring to ride but it’s so fast like I think one of the reasons is it feels boring is because it does seem to absorb lots of the road chatter and stuff but that to

Me personally just feels boring like uh I mean yeah so again I think different Riders would have different opinions on stuff another thing that I find is a big question mark like Patrick loo is like you know one 1.88 m tall or whatever I’m like 1.68 M St so he’s riding much

Larger frames than me and it might be totally totally different uh experience like there’s I think it’s really hard to put to for one person to ride like an Xs and an XL and try compare them um because obviously you know a guy who can

Fit on an XL probably can’t fit on an XS but I am pretty interested of of the difference in ride qualities I think specialized are one of the brands that that put a lot of uh resources into that like trying to make sure that every bike in their range like rides the same

Whether it’s a what’s the smallest to Mac now a 40 46 or 44 I can’t remember like rides the same as the 58 whatever like that’s really hard to do especially when everyone’s using the same wheels and stuff but uh yeah so back to your question uh when Patrick loo says the

Giant rides better than this or better than that like I’d say it’s hard to quantify what better is um but yeah I think the the Crux of it is what is good on paper so what the factory likes to do is they’ll build the frame they’ll have

The weight of it and then they’ll put it on their jig and so the jig they’ll measure like three things like bucket bottom bracket stiffness like you know I put 100 Newtons in the bottom bracket how many degrees does the bottom bracket move and then the same thing at the head

Tube blah blah blah and they have their number numbers that they think are good numbers cuz this is what their Western brands from 10 years ago told them were good numbers you know like the head tube has to have at least 100 Newtons per degree of stiffness and so okay they

Just put that as their goal and so the factory is very good at like optimizing the layup to make the frame as light as possible to like hit that goal but how it actually rides on the road and how how a cyclist will uh review it uh I

Think is is the question mark but again I think it’s hard for the factory cuz not only cuz lots of them don’t ride bikes themselves but just because every cyclist has different feelings of what a a good riding bike is so uh your original question is what is the best

Riding uh Chinese bike like my answer is like I’m not sure because I think different people have different answers of uh of what good writing is but the Trigon from Taiwan uh the Trigon that I rode on the channel a few months ago that thing rode like nice like I think

When people say like nice ride qualities I think the Trigon is a good example of like uh what people would be alluding to did you watch uh Fry’s tour of the uh the the factor Factory I did Joe I did I did so can I can I quickly ask you just

About this because this it was just I don’t know did you see any of this Jesse it was it was that was so good I thought that was so good that first half of that video awesome man that was good I don’t know why he

Did the rest of it the second half so um I want don’t know where to start with this but is that actually what it’s like because I I know this is I never actually put put that sort of those images into into reality that you essentially just have someone sitting

Down laying carbon into a mold building your bike like there it is happening right there is is that is that the actual process yeah so that is exactly how it is so first of all that video uh so Factor the boss of factor Rob galenus

Like he is proper OG like uh he’s yeah he’s not just a guy they they roll out for the marketing whatever like the guy uh is as as close to the center of the carbon bike industry as you can be like he’s proper OG guy like a former pro

Cyclist uh even now he’s a super strong cyclist as well like uh he does crazy like uh single rides around the whole island of Taiwan like 500 km or something crazy he’s dawn of the Chinese carbon Mafia uh yeah uh maybe we’ll say Asian because we might be offending some

People um but yeah well yeah so Rob he’s been in the game for ages and a factor are you know I I I think a rate Factor if I if I was uh if I had more money in my pocket I might I might buy a factor

And so that video that that was that was fairly accurate uh I’d say there was some stuff in there which was a bit uh you know sometimes what people don’t say is more significant than what they do say or whatever but no what you saw there of how they’re making the frames

It’s it’s that’s how it is um so that is their production factory in taong they also have a production factory here in in in Shaman in in tonen uh which is also pretty weird right cuz so in that video I think they had three girls doing

The layup and he said that it takes one girl like four hours to do a frame so one of those girls is doing like two frames a day so this uh that would be like uh six frames yeah so six frames coming out a day so at that production

Rate that would like it would take them like two or three months to make all of the frames for the the Israel Premier attack or whatever so obviously it’s not just that factory that’s doing it so then to me it’s like well which frames do you make at this Factory which frames

Do you make at the other Factory like do all the pros get the ones from this Factory where it’s your best woman and she can she’s allowed to take a Time with it and then all the consumers get the one where they only have two hours

To do the layup and the layup is different and stuff so I always find it weird when you know when people show you behind the curtain but they don’t show you everything behind the curtain it’s always H yeah um but no that is what happens literally you know you get a you

Get a box from further down in the production line which has little numbers on each ply of carbon fiber and so when you’re new to a frame you have a piece of paper next year that tells you you know which piece which piece of carbon

To put where and what angle to put it on it stuff um and I think I mentioned in the in the last show like the advantage that bigger factories and and bigger brands have is that that woman doing that layup all day she’s just doing the

Same frame the same size so I think in that video I couldn’t see the piece of paper next to her that tells her how to do the layup so she must have done that layup so many times that she just knows it off by heart and so that is when

You’re going to get the best quality of frames when the person doing the layup knows exact what they’re doing to the millimeter they know exactly where to put this piece of carbon and that’s yeah you’re going to end up with the best frames that way cuz smaller factories

Where in the morning you’re making a size 49 in the afternoon you’re making a size 58 like literally you’re looking at the piece of paper doing it looking at the piece of paper doing it it takes you a lot longer to do it and you know there’s more there’s more chance of a

Mistake happening or whatever so uh yeah that video uh is an accurate portrayal of what happens and uh and yeah credit credit to factor for showing we sharing some of the process have we have we chatted about Chinese group sets or or should I just sort of say what’s what’s

Happened here because I think last time we were chatting it was they were the it felt like we’re at the crest of a wave and it was about to like sweep everything away across the market but I don’t know there been a combination of factors like bizarre releases you know teething problems with

The products self availability distribution like what are you seeing on Panda Podium uh is the group set is the L2 Trend where are we at with it are we in are we in a freeze yeah so a good question um so this bike behind me I’m currently building up with uh l2’s new

Electronic gravel group Set uh but again uh Trace fellow also got one of these group sets and he had an issue with his or he’s had two issues with his so uh yeah same old story with that we’ll see if I have the same issues or not uh and

Then on my other bike which is just off camera I have the other Wireless group that from Wheel toop I like that one because it’s available in Rim break so I’ve got now Rim break uh Wireless Chinese group set yeah to answer your question this could be a this could be a

2hour podcast in itself uh let’s let’s try like crunch it down so uh yeah I think there was kind of like a backlash right so uh all this Chinese stuff usually it’s it’s birth to the world is is from YouTube it seems to be but then all of

These Chinese group sets started to get a bad reputation even on YouTube right like so usually on the YouTube stuff it’s like oh it’s a good product it’s got this problem but you know it’s good for the price but I think for lots of the the Chinese group sets like they

Didn’t even meet that standard right it was like don’t buy this unless you really want to like pull your own hair out and something something you know um lots of people were having less and Stellar experiences uh and yeah I think this caused a bit of a backlash in their

Popularity overseas as well and then for me personally or like for panda Podium as well so I was hesitant to stock ERX like the L2 electronic group Set uh I was hesitant to stock it for ages uh just like three weeks ago is the first

Time I’ve listed it on the on the site but even so I’m selling it in super limited quantities and make sure like it says on the on the description very clearly like yo this isn’t the most stable thing in the world like um if you have any issues we’ll be here for you

But like you know um this isn’t going to be just you know Plug and Play like your 105 but L2 are pretty confident that they’ve uh ironed out all of the bugs uh they told me that you know they show me you know what problems they had before

And how to fix them yada yada yada and so yeah I I’ve listed ERX on there now but I’m not shouting about about it uh I’m not pushing it and uh the other day ironically um our website cuz we encourage all of our customers after they buy something to come and leave a

Review because that’s what I want Panda Podium to be like this whole Community where you know if it’s crap I want to know it’s crap or if this you know it’s got this weird bug where you have to untighten this screw before you bleed it

Or yada yada y I want people to know this so I try to encourage everyone to come back and lead lead leave a review good or bad we got our first ever like one star review view uh just just last week which was for l2’s uh Rim break 11

Speed group set or something like yeah some guy said no matter what he did he he couldn’t get it working and uh yeah I I sent him uh I’m currently sending him emails and trying to make it right for him uh but yeah I thanked him for leaving his review because you know

That’s what I want it to be like warts and all if it’s crap I want I want to I want to know crap and I want everyone else to know this crap too so yeah group sets they’re definitely thing of the are they aware of like less confidence in

The current state of Chinese group sets compared to say uh Chinese wheels or Chinese handlebars let’s say I reckon one of the big issues and I don’t know if they’re aware of this is the fact that okay there’s been product there’s been issues with the products but they they’re obviously pushing out like

Updates to the product they’re like rolling updates to the product I honestly think these guys would massively benefit from almost relaunching the product and saying like Okay this is version two or this is version three or something like that and and putting a putting a stamp on right

Here here is the final version like this is the 2024 Edition here it is do you know what I mean because there we’re I think a lot of people in the west holding off going I’m going to wait for the final release yeah so I think this is the big

Brain move right so uh they’re either incredi smart or incredibly stupid and time will tell which one so um why one of my theories is so they need to play catchup with R&D with the big Brands right and so uh if they were doing behind the doors testing you know even

If they had like 100 cyclists each doing like you know a th000 kilometers a month like okay that’s big miles but a much better way is what they’re doing now like they’re selling like tens of thousands of units of this and they’re getting a lot more testing feedback now

Um uh there’s two positives for that from their point of view number one you have some cash coming in obviously because people are paying money for these group sets and number two you’re getting so much more data like they are able to gather the same amount of data

In like you know half year of testing that you orally wouldn’t be able to get in decades of testing uh but obviously the flip side of that is that you’re basically committing like brandall suicide like you you’re putting your brand into the into the dirt but maybe

The big brain move is you do this for a short period of time to get a bunch of data to develop your product and then you Rebrand yourself you come out with a new brand name or you buy a western brand like so I’m sure there are some struggling Brands these days perhaps

Even campola these days might not be as Str as they were before or rotor or any of the ones who have dabbled in group sets before you buy this brand and then you then you put out your new now fully developed fuling fully work working product under that brand name and as far

As the Western consumers are concerned who’ve never watched YouTube they’ve just got a you know a brand new player to the group set game who’s got a good product and uh seems competent counterfeit frames is that still a thing remember back in the day you’d get like

The the the China and the just legit ripoff counterfeit stuff is that still you see that these days uh yeah so the counterfeit frame stuff this this is this is also a can of worms in itself so there’s a few different kinds of of counterfeit frames or fake frames or

Whatever you want to call them so uh I’d say at the very at the very top of it we have uh Factory a is told by the brand to make 500 of this Frame but they make 600 of the frame and the extra 100 frames they sneakily uh sell to some guy

Who sells to some guy who sells to some guy who sells them and then the B the customer might buy them at the full retail price thinking they’re buying legit frames yada yada y but if ever you have a problem and you go to check the serial number with the

Brand the brand might be like yo that serial number doesn’t exist or they might end the way up onto some secondhand uh marketplace where the guy buying them it’s so cheap you don’t know if it’s a fake or if it’s out of the back door of the factory etc etc

Etc but then uh why you shouldn’t do that is okay so any legit Factory isn’t going to do that for a starter like the legit big factories won’t do that because the risk of doing it and then the brand finding out you’ll get you know you’ll get blacklisted for life and

All the brands will talk to each other and you’ll never do any customer ever again but you know factories are made up of people and and I I grew up in the black country in in England like a super working class Place back in the day and

Like you know you used to be able to get like you know you had your mate your dad’s mate Dave who could you know sell DVDs at the back of his car or whatever and like you weren’t sure if they were like fake DVDs or if they came off the

Back of the Lor cuz the Lorry got opened for a custom inspection I like it’s basically the same thing happens here like there are some bad apples in the factories who uh you know might might borrow some frames from the factory uh one of my one of my friends who’s uh a

Canadian but works in the bike industry and comes over here he told me a joke that there was one Factory that he went to and like he go to the factory like every 3 months and every time you went to the factory the walls of the factory were getting higher and higher because

One of the things you know you phone your mate to go stand over the other side of the factory wall and you’re literally throwing frames over over the factory wall to your mate who’s on the other side with his pickup truck or whatever and so yeah he joked that there

Was one Factory that well he was joking but it actually happened the factory he went to the walls were getting higher and higher each time you visited and like you know Bobb dwire got added and then like CCTV got added etc etc so you know there’s no smoke without fire they

Must be doing it for a reason so I’m so glad you said that because that’s what in my completely stereotypical uh mind like I’ve just got this image of you like driving around like behind factories and there’s just like these um bins of pineros and bianes

And you’re like oh what will I get today and you just like pick it up and take it home and like build that up and you’ve got like all this off camera just sitting there I’m so I’m I’m so glad that it’s it’s basically true is what

You’re saying well I can neither confirm nor deny but like I I have some bikes that never go on camera for certain reasons yeah uh and yeah the the less said the better but so the danger of this is also at the back of every

Factory is the QC rejects like yes uh so you know it could have this problem or that problem it could be literally unsafe to ride again some unscrupulous individual or or the factory knowingly if it was a doo Factory they could also sell these frames and then the person

They sell to might go and put a uh I’m not going to say a brand but brand name X paint on the frame and then sell them to Consumers who might legitimately think they’re buying a element thing or they might know it’s what they’re getting but again this is super

Dangerous and like you know some of the frames you know you see frames online that have this problem or that problem this could be where they came from right uh they could have been uh Factory seconds got got sold on dodg Le I’m not saying this is a RI problem uh but it

Does happen and so okay this is this is like layer one and Layer Two of counterfeit frames then the next layer down is uh other Factory uh a Ral Factory to the usually a smaller dodgier Factory like they might actually get their hands on the 3D files for the for the

Frames and again like uh you know I 3D files get copied and emailed from person to person and then before you know it you’ve got all of the 3D files of again I don’t use any brand names because last time I used some brand names and I got

In and someone got in touch with me uh but yeah so all of a sudden you have the latest and greatest maybe even the unreleased frame from Brand X because uh let’s say a big brand comes out with a new bike that they call the sl8 like they’ve been making that frame

For a year before anyone ever buys it so a a dodgy Factory might get the 3D files like 6 months before the customers get the handle it and then so they can use these 3D files to make molds and then they can start making these frames but

They might not have the layup and the raw materials won’t be the same and this that and the other so this is where it looks like a duck it quacks like a duck but it’s not a duck it’s a chicken [Laughter] um yeah so you’ll have factors doing

That and so this is like yeah the second maybe the third layer of counterfeit frames where it looks exactly the same it might literally be the same 3D files but what it’s made of and anything else who knows and there might be there might be a few variants you might be able to

Buy it without a paint job you might be able to buy it with like the Factory’s own random brand paint job written on it which will be just a bunch of letters that you can’t even read or if you send them a private message and ask them hey

Can you give me a uh paint job with brand X’s logo on there they’ll do it for you uh yep I’d avoid these as well because obviously um you have you got no idea you know cuz when Brand X designed this Frame and this tube profile they would made this tube Pro profile

Thinking you’d be using like high modulus carbon fiber but this Factory might not use high modulus carbon fiber also certain tube shapes it’s harder to get good compaction of the of the Matrix of the carbon and the resin and this Factory might not be good at doing that

And so yeah so definitely avoid these frames as well then the next layer of counterfeiting is like the guy sees a a leaked photo of the sl8 before it’s released online and so he opens up his 3D software and just starts like it’s a bit of a blurry picture but he starts

Trying to sketch it himself that happens here we go so it looks you like you know it looks like if you squint it looks a bit like a uh an SLA or whatever and then it one step further down is maybe like once the SLA comes out the

The guy buys an SLA and he 3D scans it or whatever and he makes mold from that uh and and yeah so there’s there’s all levels of quality of of counterfeit or knockoff fakes uh fake frames and stuff but then the line gets a bit blurry cuz then you get like frames that

Are just heavily inspired by another frame but you know you’ve got you’ve got two triangles this there’s a you know even even the Big Brand frames these days if you put them all in silhouette form there’s lots of frames that start to look the same and so lots of the the

Smaller factories you know if you look at 100 frames you’re going to find frames that look very very similar you know almost every frame these days looks like an sl7 but I don’t I wouldn’t call them like counterfeit sl7 frames they’re just frames that look a lot like an sl7

Because you’ve got two triangles there’s not that much you can do with it and uh you know dropped seat stays became popular and so every frame ends up looking the same so I’m kind of glad it’s not a it doesn’t feel like it’s that element of the market isn’t really

Relevant I maybe I’m delusional and I it’s just I’m I’m missing it but in the fashion industry the the counterfeit markets are huge whereas in cycling from what I can see there there’s not that many people rocking around on a fake um you know I don’t yeah I will also not

Say a brand now we’re not saying brand but you know doesn’t seem like it’s that big of a deal um at least from what I’ve seen lots of Brands out there they have a guy whose job it is to find counterfeit stuff um and so it must be a

Big of problem if you’re employing a guy and paying him like you know $50,000 a year to do this job or whatever so uh I could easily sensationalize it and you know say you know oh everyone’s riding fake frames and they don’t even know about it um but I don’t think that’s the

Case I don’t think it’s that big of a problem but it it does exist as an issue for sure one of the the things we were chatting about last time is you were very much just starting out with the the panda Podium um distribution model like I know Jesse’s kind of interested in

This and so am I I I would just love to generally ask H how is it going or what is it and how is it going yeah yeah so last time we talked we pretty much you know just just gone live the website and stuff and uh yeah so now we’ve going for

Like half a year we just finished our first black Friday which is obviously always uh fun quote unquote um but yeah it’s been it’s been different to what I thought but it’s been better than what I thought the cycling industry in China is booming now so like all of these Chinese

Brands have realized there’s a gold mine in China now so they’re not certainly so interested in doing it overseas so in terms of timing uh not the best timing I would have been a lot better doing it like 3 years ago whatever but um and yeah it’s been going really well like

The the kind of stuff that’s been selling is probably different to what thought and like the the kind of client is also different to what I’ve thought with our product lineup we didn’t want to go to super cheap super budget super economy cuz we can’t compete with like AliExpress so AliExpress like the

Government subsidizes their shipping uh I was talking to someone the other day uh they sell wheels on AliExpress they can ship a pair of wheels from China to South Korea for $ us holy mackerel by airplane $6 by airplane so it’s just it must be subsidized Etc

ET I just Joe I I noticed a similar thing I didn’t realize how much they did that because when I was uh getting samples um shipped over of kit that I was making and it was sent by FedEx I was shocked at the price now it wasn’t overly that expensive but it was

You know for a sample of Kit much be like two pieces would be $40 which is not that’s pretty it’s not that expensive but yep compared to the the the AliExpress price which is free um is uh yeah it was yeah I was like oh okay like there’s obviously something

Going on there let’s say you know you’ve got a a $200 $400 wheel set and a $2,000 wheel set like the shipping cost is about the same because the box is the same size and they’re more or less the same weight right so it makes more sense

For me to sell like mid to highend stuff where where the shipping costs as a percentage or a lower percentage of the overall cost of the wheels so yeah like our our product range is probably like mid to high-end stuff but the high-end stuff has been more popular than the

Mid-end stuff in terms of what people choose to buy was interesting what you said about the the type of rider that’s buying the products it’s not just someone looking for the cheapest thing and we discussed this a bit chis uh about a month ago about how it’s it’s a

Bit of a crowd now where it’s it’s part of the bike is is like the wind space wheels or the the craft wheels or some other kind of aspect of what’s other otherwise a totally Western branded bike but it’s like a fashion piece to have your boutique direct from Asia after

Mark a bit added on it’s not just people looking for yeah the cheapest part like we’ve definitely seen that on a a lot of people’s bikes it’s now it’s like something to be proud of it’s like I’ve got this super light unbranded saddle and it’s like this the standout piece that makes your

Bike different is there is there a hierarchy of of brands that are cutting through because I mean the reason I asked that like we we’ve talked a little bit about mine like I’ve felt that they’ve cut through into the well the if you know you know crowd

Their mainstream if you know what I mean it’s it’s an acceptable kind of brand from that perspective is are there are there brands that have have made it through in the last six months I mean we kind of know far Sports to at this point but are there any other ones that have

That have cut through yeah interesting question so uh just these days like you know everyone’s doing the whole end of year stuff and I’m I’ve also got like some end of year awards that I’m doing from Panda Podium like recognizing Brands and like you just said Jee they

Won like most influential Chinese brand of 2023 because like you say like they really like yeah they’ve really like cut through it and uh yeah like they’re they’ve got a full product range and you know they marketing they look like a professional company now like a company

That you trust your life to when you’re going down a hill which is what what we want right it obviously makes makes my job a lot easier but to answer your question are there any other brands doing it like I think it’s it so it was definitely trending up like there was in

2019 2020 2021 uh people noticed that the brands that were succeeding or I should say the companies that were succeeding in the Western Market the Chinese companies were the ones that were not just focusing on product but also focusing on the brand but then one like stepping stone or like uh a an

Amber light on this I’d say is that the Chinese market is exploding now like the demand for cycling stuff in China this year is through the roof so all of these brands who were like uh starting to warm up overseas have now realized well it’s

A lot easier if I just do it in China and like so you just mentioned EXs like their office is literally 400 meters away from me down here um they make an amazing handlebar but they just can’t make enough of it so very little gets left over for the overseas Market

Because they can’t even sell enough for the for the Chinese market so yeah lots of brands that were starting to go in this direction have maybe like paused a bit and just okay we’ll just focus on the Chinese market but then some brands have missed out so the brands that were

The successful brands in 2019 and 2020 and 20121 like the overseas direct consumer Brands who we can all think of um lots of those guys like sacrificed their standing in the domestic Chinese market to focus on the overseas market and now it’s coming back around to bite

Them in the ass CU now China the Chinese Market’s taken off and they’ve realized oh wait uh those those dealers and all of those bike shops who I ignored for those years while I was focusing overseas they no longer want to sell my stuff so yeah it’s uh the the tables

Have shifted a bit as it were uh but I definitely think those who are thinking for the L game they know that this current bubble of popularity in China is going to burst or not burst but you know it will go back down to you know pre-bubble levels and then the biggest

Market will always be the overseas market so there’s definitely companies out there who are just you know okay we can sell stuff in China no problem but we’re not going to totally throw away our overseas progress hang on hang on so the Chinese domestic Market is booming

Right so so what’s the what’s the Chinese YouTube uh surely but aren’t the thumbnails all exploding Doom and Gloom everything’s everything’s sort of gone up in smoke do why are we booming is this is this like is this a post Co thing is there any have you got any take

On why this is happening yeah so it’s quite funny uh you guys maybe a month ago six weeks ago did your show talking about you know how all these YouTubers are doing like these Burning uh on fire Factory thumbnails and stuff I wanted to make like I had no time to make the

Video but I wanted to make a video which is like you know roses and daffodils and mountains of money and just like the bik industry is booming um but yeah in China the bike industry is is going through the roof and um I think it’s a combination of things so like you said

Uh Co in China lasted longer than other countries in terms of lockdowns and stuff and I think when that ended there was a lot of a you know more thirst to be outdoors and then at the same time like from for whatever reason like China has uh I think I mentioned this last

Time as well uh like cycling in China now is like the gulf like it’s the Posh sport that if you’re seen to ride it you know everyone thinks you’re well off etc etc like that effect just keeps growing stronger and stronger and uh also racing like so during Co like racing was

Basically non-existent but now racing has come back like with a Vengeance like every weekend there so many races going on is the is the average uh so Chinese Road cyclists now are they are they still watching Pro Racing is there anything uh from the West that they’re

Getting into or is it is it a whole bubble on its own like are they watching the Tour of France or good question uh so I i’ say like in the in the circle of cyclist there’s like sub niches and stuff and this this new like trendy Niche like I say they’re

Less into the racing side of thing and more into like the lifestyle side of thing and again I’m not gatekeeping like it is what you want it to be at like you want to bike I’m happy uh but yeah so the this this new bubble let expanding

The quickest I’d say they’re not really into the racing they don’t really watch the racing but you know they might know a few names from the Tor of France and like you know they might choose the bike based on who won the Toral France like

CLL seems to be doing okay here um and yeah so I’d say it’s less of a less of a pro racing like fan club crowd and more of just like you know a trendy a trendy new like uh what would what would be the equipent in the west you know like your

Your Rafa CC like uh crowd or whatever just being just s of being selfish for a second like see the domestic domestic cycling’s booming blah blah blah and so you see this kind of narrative when people talk about the bike industry now in the west like you’ll often see it

Oh they deserve this the bike industry deserve to suffer for a while etc etc because you obviously you see some of the layoff type things are we living under a bit of an illusion that the bike industry is suffering because is is there potentially enough of a a boom in

The domestic Chinese market that will kind of make a soften the landing really my my question is like are the the Western Brands gaining from this as well good question and I think it depends like on the brand and how much they invested in in China previously so I think Canyon if

I’m not mistaken they have no official distribution in China so they’re left going whoops and like you guys saw the news about Canyon’s earnings recently right so I don’t know if that’s related but yeah and then you got Brands like pinell who’ve always been uh always had official Distributors here I think

They’ve got two official Distributors and always like supporting the local scene uh and yeah so they’re they’re reaping the benefits now but I do think the West the bike Market in the west is generally hurting like there’s no there’s no doubt about that like uh the Black Friday deals were crazy like we

Got lots of crap on our black fry deal deals cuz like one of my whole things of panda Podium is just we’re trying to simplify the shopping experience and make it less sensationalist we don’t want it to be like you know there’s a sale every every month and you know the

Prices get slashed the half price we want it to be like good prices all year round and so at Black Friday like if you don’t do black friday people are going to be mad so we did some bundles and stuff you know they’d be like 15ish to

20% off on these bundles and people were like outraged like why aren’t you doing 50% off I’m like because I’m I don’t want to go bankrupt like uh so yeah like I do think the bike industry is hurting in the west or they wouldn’t be doing this stuff and also

The factor is here this is been super interesting as well so all of the factories here in 2019 and 2020 when it started going up overseas all of the big orders came now all of the local factories they all like they brought new machines they brought new factories they

Expended expended expended like everyone thought this was going to last forever and now all of these Western brands have warehouses full of stock so they’ve stopped ordering from the facturers and now these factures are going ah what do we do and so for them luckily the Chinese Market is booming so they can

Okay we’ll we’ll make our own domestic brand and use our Factory to to prop up that so you’ve seen a b i well I don’t know if you’ve seen but there’s been a few new Chinese Brands emerging these days like there’s one called Bross b r o

SS I don’t know if they’ve yeah yeah I think that is a similar I think that is a result of the situation I just said like you know Factory suddenly has a big Factory with no orders coming in what should I do well cycling is booming in

China I’ll make a Chinese brand and and go with that so yeah have seen lots of that going on a brand called parus p a r d s like they also do lots of OEM for the big Brands overseas but their brand in China is also very successful so for

Them it’s been perfect like the OEM orders went down okay I’ll just start pushing my own brand in China more so uh yeah it’s it’s worked out well for them with your channel so the China cycling Channel um obviously now you have like P Panda Podium which is uh Distributing

Chinese products essentially a lot of the products that you have on your channel what and China cycling is well for for a lot of us is the first place we see a lot of the products that then become you can buy on Panda Podium how do so I thought my question really is

Like how do you balance this because you know you’re you’re a writer you you enjoy doing review a lot of your reviews are super honest and you know but ultimately you know you’re also trying to sell some of these products so is the future for your channel going to be

Continuing to do the reviews and the that that kind of stuff or or how do you sort of see the two working together I suppose yeah this is like a super good question and uh something that I think a lot about and and and spend more time

Thinking about than I should like one topic that I’m really interested in and and maybe that this is going to be our episode three if we do it one day it’s just like YouTube reviews in general like and how much should people disclose and like uh for example like commission

Systems are commission systems a good thing or a bad thing because in you know you guys know as a YouTuber you put a lot of work into making a video like uh you know you’ve just built up your S5 you know you’re putting money you’re spending money to pay on to build up

This frame with parts and putting putting time into it and stuff and like every time a YouTuber puts up a a review video on YouTube and the re video can be 100% complete you’ll say everything but as soon as the video goes up in the comments you’ll get a loads of people

Asking questions but oh but how does it really ride or you’ll get a bunch of DMs like oh but is it really a good bike and you’re like well yeah I wouldn’t have said it if it was but like so for me commission is a good thing because you

Know YouTubers are putting their time into this thing and to introduce if if it’s to generally introduce a good brand or a good product to customers I feel like they should get rewarded for their time of doing this right and YouTube ad money is a joke like that’s not the

Reward these days um and so Commission in theory is this nice thing where everyone wins right the consumer gets a 10% discount the YouTuber gets some money for putting the time into it and the brand gets to sell uh sell more product y everyone’s happy but it

Completely gets abused or it’s open to be abused uh on like I have I have a lot a lot a lot of data about this cuz I work obviously work with lots of YouTubers and talk to you guys and all the other guys you know we all have WhatsApp

Groups or messaging groups and stuff and I know a lot about what goes on behind the scenes and uh you know you’ve got like Brands trying to outbid each other in terms of how much commission they pay and so then a YouTuber when he’s doing

His end of year review of like which are the best wheels is he going to actually say which are the best wheels or is he going to say the brand that gives him the highest percentage commission or is he going to recommend the wheels that are more expensive

Because you know 3% of a $2,000 wheel set is more than 3% of a $1,000 wheel set so I think YouTube in general is like like I say I love the platform I I think that YouTubers should be rewarded etc etc but this is a topic for another

Another ation for sure like I really think someone should do like a round table of like uh Brands and YouTubers talking about this this issue because I feel like consumers who watch YouTube they don’t know a lot about what goes on behind closed doors and uh lots of the

There’s a spectrum of Youtubers of how transparent they are as well like you know you’ve got YouTubers Who start every video by saying like yo this Frame was sent to me by Brand X or Brand X are paying me to make this video so take everything I say with a grain of salt

But then you get YouTubers who I know are receiving product or receiving commission and they just don’t mention it uh which you know there in certain countries there’s also laws about this and what you can and can’t do you know do you need to put the little hashtag ad

And put an ad thing on your on your thumbnail so this ties into me and China cycling and Panda Podium of course because now I have this thing where uh of course he’s going to say good things about it cuz he’s selling it uh but I

Believe I built my audience of like 50 whatever thousand subscribers because over a period of time people who built bought my stuff in the past have had good experiences and then they come back and keep listening to my advice and the the the value of this audience and the

Trust this audience has in me uh you exploit that in the short term maybe you can sell like you know 50 sets of Wheels before people coton on uh but longterm you can sell thousands of sets of wheels so I’m never going to abuse this trust from my audience for a shortterm like

Flash in the pan like if I said wheel Brand X was amazing and then everyone buys it and they have a horrible experience people are going to know and like the comment section of all my videos there just going to be people like flaming me so um and and rightfully

So but yeah so to go back to the question I only want to review things even before Panda Podium like I only want to review things that I like like I’ve never been interested in like trying to you know get my hands on something that I think bad and making a

Video ripping it apart like hambini does that he does it really well but for me especially in the beginning the only thing I got from the brand was the product to keep my hands on it so the why would I want a bad bike like I want

Good bikes so I do my research before I deal with a brand and now okay I do my research I find something I like uh if I like it and it does ride well then yeah the next step is definitely that I want to sell it on Panda Podium as well and

So there’s definitely this thing where like you know lots of the things you’ll see on the channel are positive and a cynic would easily say oh he’s only saying good things about it cuz he’s selling it he wants you to buy it uh yeah of course that’s an an easy

Conclusion to come to but usually it’s that I did my research way before and then I got my hands on it I liked it and that’s why I started selling it um off camera here we build lots of bikes uh so we’ll approach a brand and we’ll tell

Them you know I’ve got this website I do this I do that I’ve also got a YouTube channel uh can you give me a frame for free as a sample to check it out most of the brands will say yes but even if they say no like I’ll buy it with my own

Money and so we have a bunch of frames built up here which are all in the process of being either built up or reviewed or tested to go on the site Etc it’s it’s a really cool process that goes through and something that I do want to show people like behind behind

The curtains of what goes on as well uh and yeah so we have this process of we all ride it we build it I definitely think building the bike you learn a lot about the bike but still at the end of the day it’s usually just a sample size of one or two

Frames so will it be all of them I’m not sure so then especially if there’s a new brand that I’ve never sold before so first of all we’ll ride it ourselves a lot when we’re building it up we’ll go over it with a fine Toth comb but then

Especially like the first few orders that we have uh we will we will be a lot more diligent on the QC of those frames than a brand that we’ve been selling for a while maybe so yeah that’s what goes on uh but I feel like this will work a

Lot better if you guys ask me questions or you guys play Devil’s Advocate and and I’ll I’ll just respond to the criticism when you said about the com like YouTubers getting commission is commission good or bad I just have a a tidbit on that and that it starts to

Wear thin because if if you’re watching someone’s Channel and then it starts to become the only reason they’re putting up a video is so that there can be an affiliate link or some ad for a product in the video don’t you you start to get sick of watching them because their only their

Whole existence is there just to to promote a link or to sell something and that gets like there are some channels where that’s a natural fit I would say uh like um like a Dave Arthur it’s like you’re going there to look at a bike you’re basically going there to be

Sold something if you’re watching a Dave Arthur video but then there’s other channels that Maybe started more organically and then they do a few affiliate links and they realize oh that made money and then they go well there’s no point me just making a a genuine video with

No product to sell because obviously they’re not going to make that money in that video I feel like that’s a shame because then you’ve got out of let’s say the 10 people you follow on YouTube if all of them are just making videos so they can just promote someone’s

Affiliate link you kind of lose the there’s a whole side of things that isn’t just a review or chatting about a product that you then lose because there’s no money in that it’s a shame I’ll say the the flip side of that like so before I had Panda Podium uh I’d go

And buy these i’ I’d buy these products because you know I didn’t have clout back then I’d buy these products uh in China and I’d make reviews on them and I’d say you know this is a great product yada yada yada and then the comment section was just full of people going

Like where do I buy it where do I buy it where do I buy it and I don’t want to like I buy it on towbar like the local Marketplace I don’t want to give someone a link to some AliExpress seller who I have no idea like what service they’re

Going to give like will it sell them the same stuff and stuff so this was kind of like also one of the catalysts for panda Podium because I used to review this stuff and say it was good and then people were all all in the comments like

Yo where can I buy it where can I buy it where can I buy it and so Panda Podium was also kind of Born to just okay you can buy it from me like there I’ve solved the problem for you um but yeah you’re definitely right like when it

When it turns into you know every everything an affiliate channel uh it goes It goes boring real quick like on my YouTube I’ve never deleted a comment like that’s one thing that I’ll I’ll I’m a I’m a big believer in uh Free Speech which some people might think ironic

Given where I live uh but I’ve never deleting a comment uh the only thing like those fake giveaway guys like I’ll mark that I’ll report that spam but I’ve never deleted a comment but one comment that cut me pretty deep the other day was like one guy on my video like I made

A bunch of videos during Black Friday and one guy was like this channnel has just turned into the China uh turned into the panda Podium shopping channel and I was like fair play fair play like that cut deep but uh so now I try to balance the content a bit more like I’ll

Like you know the Trigon like I don’t sell that and I’ll put it up there people people like it people like it I’ve got some videos coming that’s why yeah go ahead that’s why I ask you the question because you are in such a unique position like it’s all good and

Well like I hear what Jesse is saying about you know affiliate links and all that kind of thing for for certain people trying to make money and that but you as I said like you were are like for a lot of us the first the first

Impression we get on any of these Brands like oh what’s what’s new uh you know even your walkarounds in some of the some of the Expos and things like that it’s just like oh my God look at this stuff from another planet and I can totally you know I can totally

Understand for years and years and years you just would have got oh wow that’s great but I’m never going to be able to see that you saw a space in the market you’ve created Panda podium and yeah I I the the the fit is then is kind of

Awkward but it’s also perfect because you know you are you are the the kind of shining the light bulb onto a lot of these products and now you’ve given us a safer place to to buy it so I don’t know I I kind of feel like with you it’s like

Put up or shut up like I’m just whatever exactly well that’s what the channel was that’s why your channel was good it was prom it was showcasing products but it would be Chris like if you started just making every video oh look I bought new

AOS socks and then it was just the whole video existed because you so people would click at a link to buy them and you just did that that was just the videos you did because that’s you could make more money like that’s where it would be like but then wouldn’t wouldn’t

I then start an Aeros Sox shop like you know wouldn’t no isn’t it isn’t it different isn’t it like I I find this new Aeros Sox brand and I introduce it to everyone and everyone goes wow they’re amazing where can I buy them and I’m like oh hang on

Give me give me a couple of years and I go back and I build build this Aeros sock Distribution Company and then on my videos I go okay I’m not talking about what I’m talking about what most people do which is like they have a channel and

Then it doesn’t really make them enough money so they just become this influencer affiliate link person not to totally separate from what Joe’s doing which is starting a business giving people access to products they couldn’t get before so yeah no no that’s um yeah separate separate separate sort of thing

Um but that’s why as I said I mean people are going to Joe’s Channel because they’re curious about buying a product most of the time like that’s I want to see the new electronic Chinese group set so I’m going to go to Joe’s Channel like that’s a natural that’s what he’s providing but

Yeah uh I think I encourage everyone to analyze everything I say I think lots of channels I think this is what Jesse was also pointing to every video they make like this is the best wheel set ever this is the best wheel set ever and then

Next month it’s like oh no this is the best wheel set ever this is the best wheel set ever and uh I try to stay away from that as much as possible and as I alluded to earlier I I don’t even believe there is a best wheel set ever

Anymore so uh yeah uh everyone should be skeptic of what they see in the YouTube space and uh yeah take everything with a a pinch of salt we’ve probably missed the window but what’s the uh what’s the P now now we can put now we can push

Panda Podium I’m ke to push it let’s let’s get on it um what’s what’s the Christmas what’s the best cycling Christmas present I’m I’m tempted by the world’s lightest through axles that’s that’s definitely that’s in my wheelhouse I could get around maybe someone that wouldn’t be happy if they

Unwrapped that at Christmas that is legit that’s that’s such a good present I’ve got a tidbit about this product too so earlier you were asking me about the typical uh Panda Podium customer so I I really really can’t name names on this one but we have World Tour Riders

Amongst our amongst our customers and jayvine 100% Betty Betty’s BL I’ll tell you after the after the show I I’ll I’ll tell you a uh I’ll tell you who it is um but yeah like we’ll have orders come in and I’ll see the name and I’ll be like

Is it that so and so and uh May and maybe I’ll send like you know I’ll have a look at the address I’m like I think that’s where they live like go look on straa is that where they’re doing the training right I’m like huh and then

Like maybe I’ll send them an email being like Oh you know tell me to f off if you want but are you so and so so and so and they’ll be like yeah yeah yeah like and then I’ll get in a huge nerdy conversation with someone about about

Bike parts so yeah we have World Tour Riders buying our stuff we have uh uh we have people who work for other YouTubers buying stuff like we have performance managers for World po World Tour teams uh we have um yeah I I I’m trying not to

On that so what what are they you don’t have to give specifics but what what are they buying is it those kind of lightweight little um tricked out parts or are they buying like Wheels but so what happened with the you just said that over thels so this world tour Rider

Ordered some oast throughs and like sent me me in the order notes was like make sure they get to me by x uh of X month because there’s a big race coming up and I was like H and uh I was like oh I

Guess it is that guy but I sent him a message going like because the over fast DirectX they’re super live they’re super cool but you installing it uninstalling them you have to Baby them a bit like in the instructions and on the website it says you know you have to insert the hex

Head into like I can’t remember the exact number but you have to put the tool pretty deep inside to make sure there’s a good surface area EX I was like I was like mate you World Tour guys walk around with freaking uh battery powered impact Rangers like like you

Guys you guys are going to chew these up in in seconds and he was like no no no it’s just for like you know a time trial stage or it’s just for like a one- day race or something I was like okay as long as as long as you know what you’re

Getting yourself in for so yeah um we have a few guys interested in those uh uh I don’t know if I can say yeah maybe I can say like the crw wheels uh there may or may not be uh World Tour teams uh testing Those Behind

Closed Doors and asking if they can buy them without logos to run in some races H so that’s been really exciting um and the yeah the feedback from from that guy was super cool uh they’re super down on board with those wheels so that’s going to be super cool too and that and

Because like that’s one thing that I happen as well like when I made the original crw video like I was because I generally do love the wheels I was super enthusiastic about the wheels and then so there’s always this thing like is it just me or are they really good wheels

And so when I get like uh the performance manager for a world tour team when he’s finally shiing that email saying oh yeah the labs been riding them and they love them and this side the other and oh I want to buy a set for my

Personal bike as well yada yada When I See This feedback I’m like it’s super validating that you know I’m not talking out my ass and people do like the stuff that I recommend so yeah that that’s always uh a relief more than anything because it for me like as I to earlier

Like my my what’s the word uh my credibility or like my my seal of approval on a product like that is you know that is my most thing of value and as soon as I lose that I lose everything so it’s always nice when you get the reaffirmation that your seal of approval

Is is is still worth something and people agree with what you’re what you’re what you’re recommending so we managed to convince you to come back on Joe but that wasn’t wasn’t wasn’t that first of all I just checked last show just over 100k views so that’s super cool um you you’re still the

King I was I was giving I often give the other YouTubers some for it like uh it’s become a thing don’t don’t care about who’s getting coms now we care about who gets the most views on the near or at least maybe only I care

Because yeah I’m at the top but no you guys are killing me with a podcast like um I talk too much and I go off on tangents and you guys did a really good job of like you know bringing me back and making sure I I speak uh so people

Can understand and whoever edited it I think Chris did a very good job with the edit but no after that show so the feedback in general was was super good like I had so many people reach out to me and say like oh watch that show that

Super cool because when I was making that show I have this balance to make right like so I didn’t Spill the Beans enough to make it interesting but I can’t just put everyone’s dirty laundry out in the open and so when I was doing that show it was like this balance and I

Was a bit nervous of how it been received but like I got industry veterans uh like CEOs of of Brands reaching out to me and and saying like yo you hit the nail on the head that’s perfect like thanks for sharing it with everyone and like that was a that was a

Relief for for one for sure then on the other hand of the side like you know I got uh I’ve got other cycling journalists and old friends and uh and and some Riders reaching out to me as well saying like yo that was cool thanks

For doing it yada y so good know to you guys for that but then uh in the last video we talked a lot about a certain brand uh I’ll I’ll not name them now but at the time we talk we talked a lot about a certain brand and which Factory

Of a certain brand makes in and like whether or not they’re using the same layup for the pros as the what the average Jo buys and so yeah yeah yeah and then your video went up and then like 24 or 48 hours later I get a

Message on my phone I get a friend request that says I’m so and so so and so from Brand X and I’d like to talk to you I was like oh but it turns out it wasn’t their legal department it wasn’t their marketing department he was actually one of their like higher

Composite engineer guys and it just so happened he was in sh at the time as well and I was like H this is either the how they get me with the Honey Trap and like I’m gonna go there to meet this guy and actually g a bag

Over gone yeah yeah she never camear from me again this is what happened but no so it turned out this guy H was a super super chill cool guy and like so I accept SP reest and he said oh I saw the show it it was super

Cool but there was some things in there which weren’t quite technically correct and I was like sure cool uh I’m open to gr I’m like it was like I was like well tell me what was wrong he was like oh you to meet up sometime and so uh I said yeah let’s

Meet up yada y y and then we arranged to meet up like in we said we’re going to do a ride together at the weekend and then so it’s the middle of the week and I was doing one of my random uh training rides and my training ride goes past the

Factory That Brand X users so just as a whatever like I took a photo of the factory back door as I went past and I sent it to him and and I put my phone in my back pocket and did my ride and so then as I’m doing my ride and this was

Like uh middle of summer like it’s super hot in the middle of the enchantment I’m going up this hill climb and uh there’s I see a guy in the distance and like it’s like 36 Dees super humid there’s a guy going like full David God like no

Teas your I’m just running up this like 7% Hill I get closer and closer and there like I’ve seen I’ve seen more me on a Butch’s pencil this guy is super ripped going super hard and I’m like fair play J Man and then I get to the

Top of the hill I come down the hill I see the guy again and it looks like a Chinese guy so I’m just like yo and I do my thing he does his thing then I get to the bottom of the hill and I check my

Phone and the the guy has replied to my messes going ah I’ve just left the factory and I’m going for a run I’m like like was that the guy I just saw hang on and so I sent him a message like is it on this climb and I said the name of the

Clim that we’re on and he send me a message going yeah I just saw a guy on a bike was that you and I’m like huh and so it turns out this like composite engineer guy is a freaking Superman of an athlete like he was full on going

Full gas up this client like running and like so I wa from to come down the hill we have a bit of a chat yada yada yada super chill guy super nice super knowledgeable and we talked a bit about some of the mistakes I made uh and like

So the big thing was like they don’t actually use special layups for the pros anymore uh you know I only have his word to go by but he seems like a nice guy so yeah sure Al I’ll officially correct myself that what I said last time about

Brand X using pre special layups uh as far as I’ve been told that is no longer true it is something that was apparently done before but it’s not done anymore so I just love with that story so just with that story because we were we were sort of texting and communicating we were

Chatting even after like you know it went well blah blah blah I hope you enjoyed it edit blah blah I’ll do it again etc etc and then you were like oh this guy from Brand X has reached out to me and wants to meet up right and and

And then that that was kind of sitting in the chat for like three days and I’m messaging you back going Joe Joe Joe and Jesse and I like oh well that was the end of Joe then he’s he’s been whisked away by Brand X never to be heard of

Again and then and then anyway few days later oh no I was just out of reception blah blah blah sorry guys it turns out it’s actually just ay up with just on that Joe I actually don’t I don’t think you necessarily need to feel I don’t think you should feel

Bad about that sure it’s like good to come on and correct yourself but if you say something with information you have from a source or from someone you you think is telling the truth at the time and you say it this is a thing that

Happens on the show all the time is we might say something and then someone says oh you know you’re incorrect on that blah blah blah well it’s a public forum there’s a comment section you know if a brand wants to come in because they watch the bloody show they’re listening

So they can come on and correct that if they want but we hear all the time of you said something about someone and that was incorrect or a brand doesn’t agree with this well they could come and leave a comment we can pin the comment at the top and they can correct the

Record if if they want and I haven’t seen a lot of that it’s a lot of um you know talking off record or talking you know um basically behind the show and not actually correcting anything publicly um so I just want to say that like it is YouTube it is public if we

Say something wrong and a brand wants to um state that that that was not true they can leave a comment Chris will pin it at the top and they can they can make us look like idiots if they’d like we’ve had two we’ve had two examples so argon

And standard are the two brands that have reached out and commented in a public forum and clarified something that we’ve said and it’s just been out there for people to to discuss now and and like Jesse said we know pretty much every other brand we discuss talks about

It behind closed doors and doesn’t do anything so yeah shout out to those yeah so uh I don’t want to be you know because the last video especially and this video like you know it’s like oh you know spilling the beans on the industry blah blah blah blah blah like I

Don’t want to be saying sensationalist things and then if they’re not true just like going oh it they’re not true I don’t care um no like you know I think you know you have have some again back to the whole credibility thing whatever like if I’m wrong I’ll put my hands up

And sound wrong so yeah fair enough if I was wrong on that one yeah like I also want to say officially and legally like everything I say in this podcast is just my own personal opinion uh and everything is just uh what I’ve heard allegedly and don’t take anything i’ say

As factual but again just to finish off the story I ended up riding with that guy at the weekend and yeah he ripped my legs off and I think like it was uh it was just desserts for me talking smack about his brand so yeah don’t don’t talk

I think I I I titled the I titled the ride on stra was like don’t talk smack about engineers from Brand X don’t talk smack about Brand X on YouTube otherwise Engineers will come and rip your legs off because that guy was was was a strong Rider and yeah

Schooled me proper hard so I no doubt he’s watching this so uh yeah I’m ready for round two all right Jo well on that note um I think we’ll we’ll just agree to uh I did I loved your idea about um like a reviewers Forum I definitely

Think we we do something like that and we’ll um 100% check back in but again thank you so much for for coming on being candid uh giving us an insight into what’s going on over there and an update into Panda Podium and I think this comes

From both Jesse and I that we we are really really like excited and and proud to know you and and proud um that this is well this this is a huge potential um change for the industry and and we we’re um yeah super excited about it so long way we me saying

We’ll do it again and thank you so much for coming On