Episode 34 of the Fire Safety Matters Podcast features Brian in discussion with a duo of sector specialists: Steve McGuirk (executive officer at the Fire Sector Federation) and Derrick Hall, sales and marketing director for life safety control systems developer Kentec Electronics.
A former Board director for the Institution of Fire Engineers, Steve was recognised for his contribution to public service through the award of the Queens Fire Service Medal in 2002 and a CBE two years later. He served as an Expert Witness during the Grenfell Tower Public Inquiry.
In conversation with Brian, Steve duly focuses on the ongoing and excellent work of the Fire Sector Federation and also outlines how the industry per se can best support its endeavours.
Derrick joined Kentec in late 2018 armed with 20 years’ experience of operating in the fire detection and fire alarms arena. Commendably, his career underscores a steadfast commitment to innovation and excellence in the fire safety industry, underpinned by a fervent passion for saving lives and safeguarding property.
On the podcast, Derrick assesses the Solihull Community Housing project and examines how manufacturers can adapt to meet regulatory changes.
As always, Brian and Mark Sennett (the CEO of Western Business Media and the founder of Fire Safety Matters magazine) analyse several major industry news stories.
This time around, there’s a focus on the Building Safety Regulator becoming the Building Control Authority for England, London Mayor Sadiq Khan calling for urgent action on impending fire safety rules, the results of a recent fire door survey conducted by the British Woodworking Federation’s Fire Door Alliance and insurer Aviva expanding its underwriting appetite to include engineered timber.
Welcome to Episode 34 of the fire safy matters podcast where we bring you the latest news views and opinion from across the UK’s dedicated fire industry my name is Brian Sims and I’m the editor of fire safety matters magazine we’re delighted that this podcast is sponsored
By the fire safety event which runs at the NEC in Birmingham from the 30th of April until the 2nd of May 2024 fire safety matters is once again serving as the lead media partner for the exhibition to register for the show visit www.f firesafety event.com as always I’m joined on the fire safety
Matters podcast by my colleague Mark senet the CEO at Western Business Media and also the founder of fire safety matters magazine morning Mark how’s things with you yeah very good thanks Brian it’s been a busy summer and uh you know now we’re looking ahead to the FIA guide that you’re obviously putting
Together for us and we got our fingers crossed that FSM might be nominated uh for a couple more awards for the end of the year and uh it’s been a it’s been a positive year and there’s a lot going on in the sector at the moment I’m really
Looking forward to doing the news in this episode of the podcast because there’s some quite juicy stuff to cover but like I always say Brian you don’t have to wait for this podcast to come out to get the latest news you can go to our website it’s completely free to go
To the site and you can go to FSM matters.com if you can’t remember that throw into a search engine fire safety matters up with pop and you can see all the latest news prosecutions products and services and our feature articles on there as well you can sign up to our
Weekly E news Adda completely for free and you can get all this sent straight to your inbox there’s over 54,000 of you currently subscribed so thank you very much you can subscribe to get the magazine for free four times a year alongside with the FIA guide as I’ve
Just mentioned the FIA guide so you can register for free on that we do so many webinars and I’ll probably touch on that a bit later actually Brian too on the webinars tab of our website you can look at all of our past webinars watch them
Again on demand for free and get CPD certificates you can obviously follow us on X which used to be Twitter or LinkedIn to see all the latest headlines as well so lots of ways you can engage with this without the podcast but we’re very grateful to all of you for actually
Engaging in this podcast and uh for those of you that aren’t familiar we always start off with the news and Brian I think it’s your turn this episode to start what’s the first news story you’ve got for us it is indeed Mark as of the 1st of October the building safety
Regulator became the building Control Authority for all higher risk buildings in England this means that developers will no longer be able to choose the building control body they use for building new residential buildings over 18 M tall or seven stories with at least two residential units and hospitals and
Care Homes that meet the same height threshold developers must also apply to the building safety regulator for building control approval before starting building work on any projects involving higher risk building buildings the building safety act 2022 places new legal responsibilities on those who are involved in the design construction and occupation of high-risk
Buildings this means that everyone undertaking building work will need to be able to demonstrate compliance with the law and what’s more provide hard evidence of this if and when challenged to do so this will ensure more stringent project oversight with clear accountability for the safety of high-risk buildings throughout their
Entire life cycle in addition to building safety act Mark the building higher risk buildings Pro procedures England regulations 2023 came into force on 17th of August this document sets out the building control processes that apply to all high-risk building projects the new regulations deliver the recommendations made by Dame Judith
Hackit in the repor entitled building a safer future they cover the technical detail underpinning the new and somewhat more stringent regime for the design and construction of high-risk buildings as well as the details of the new in occupation safety regime for these structures the building safety regulator
Will now carry out its function as a building Control Authority through teams that include a registered building inspector and any other specialist required to assess a building control application submission these will be called multidisiplinary teams further to this Mark the building safety regulator will lead these teams to ensure effective regulatory decisions
Guide the structure of an inspection schedule and also input to any requirements are either conditions that may be applied to an approval this is not a new regime in terms of the assessment or plans and site inspections Mark but it’s most certainly a new method of delivery to strengthen
Regulatory oversight building work on higher risk buildings will have to pass through a rigorous process consisting of three Gateway points Building Safety regulator approval must be obtained before the conventions of building work ahead of any significant change is made during construction and also when building work is completed it will be
Deemed an offense to start building work without the building safety regulator’s approval while the regulator Harbors enforcement powers to take action where proven breaches do occur once any high-risk buildings has received its building control certificate it can then be registered with the building safety regulator and registration must be
Completed by the building’s principal accountable person the building safety regulator will call in registered buildings at regular intervals to make sure accountable persons and principal accountable persons are regularly assessing and continuously managing fire and structural safety risks for their high-rise buildings I know you have some
Points to add on this story Mark yeah do and what I would say is you can see the story in full on our website which is obviously FSM matters.com or just throw into search engine fire safety matters but in our own search box just um the title of this article is regulator now
Building Control Authority for higher risk buildings in England so you can find I’ll then read it in full it’s good to see this now moveing to the stage of where it’s at we’ve covered this right from its infancy Brian um we’ve covered everything all the way through back to
The independent review of fire safety and and buildings by Dame Judith hackit and and obviously post grenfell this is where this has come from and it’s good to see it coming into fruition to the stage that it’s at and the bits I want to add to it is according to the health
And safety executive the building St regulator new regulator regime has moved further ahead in its vital registration program of inscope high-rise residential buildings that are at least 18 MERS or seven stories tall with two or more residential units so building registrations for such structures are a major step in a package of measures
Designed to ensure high-rise residential buildings are safer residents and users the registration information provided by Duty holders will be used by the building safety regulator to help the operation prioritize buildings for the building assessment certificate process from April next year depending when you’re listening to this that is 2024 so
Principal accountable persons were given until the 1st of October just gone in 2023 as a few days ago as we recording this to register all high-rise residential buildings in England it’s now an offense to allow residents to occupy unregistered buildings so just commenting on this and I always like to
Share some quotes on this Brian the Deputy Chief Inspector of buildings at the building Sage regulator commented and this is Chris Griff in uh McAn that’s amazing I managed to say that without chipping up but I managed it we are encouraged to see that since the highrise sorry the high- risk buildings
Regulation Ser was opened in April majority of principal account persons have recognized their mandatory registration obligations when the registration deadline was reached on the 1st of October over 13,000 Applications had been started so Chris goes on to say we’re now urgently reminding the minority of Duty holders who have missed
This deadline for completing their registration application that they could face significant sanctions including prosecution they should respond to their legal Judy by acting now and register to avoid action being taken against them so and that’s obviously a message that we want to highlight as part of uh the end
Of this story it’s really important if you haven’t done that you you have a legal obligation to do so so yeah I mean we we we’ve been obviously following the building regulator and now obviously building Control Authority right from the start and um yeah it’s taken another
Evolution and another step forward so as I say always we got our website for latest news and we’re going move on to our next news story from uh well it’s one for me actually to cover it’s my turn to say which one that I I want to
Go over and and this is a particularly interesting one to me and I’ll explain why you in a minute it’s a via expands underwriting appetite to includes engineered Timber now we’re going talk about timber frame buildings here and and the reason this is interesting to me
Is I did in a previous life uh work at the uh Fire Protection Association who had a very strong view back then um on Timber and Sustainable Building Materials and uh I’ll just leave this in your thought before I read the story story to you and go onto it that that
Wood burns so insur of Eva has underlined it sustainability commitments by expanding the company’s underwriting appetite to include engineered timber in commercial developments also referenced as mass Timber cross- laminated Timber and glum engineered tumber is a terminology used for wood products that have been manufactured and bonded together to form a complete composite
Material panel or building system the news follows on from a successful pilot which saw the UK’s largest insurer working with a handful of developers on sustainable building projects in the UK alone the built environment contributes 40% of carbon emissions by working with contractors who want to build more
Sustainability Aviva aims to assist the construction sector to reduce its carbon footprint although a growing number of developers are seeking to build more sustainable buildings for commercial use insurer’s appetite for these risks has not kept pace by putting significant underd capacity towards these projects AA is demonstrating the risk management
Can support the UK as it evolves to become climate change ready in fact Aver is one of the first UK insurers to commit dedicated underwriting resources for the development of more sustainable buildings working with contractors Brokers and owners from the design stage the insurer is helping to ensure the
Resilience and repairability of these buildings by using leading risk management strategies to safeguard them from water damage and fire putting risk management at the center of the design process can help to remove or otherwise mitigate these risks while in parallel a competitive and sustainable approach to Insurance pricing now I know you’re
Going to have more to add to this Brian but I just want to put my two cents in here just want to go back to where I said at the start wood burns you know and that’s something that I have seen in Testing Laboratories how quick Timber
Frames GARP in fire we all know that total loss fires ultimately lead near 90% of the time to a business never restarting now that’s before we even talk about the life safety of individuals in there I’m talking about property protection there now I do understand the need to use more
Sustainability and I’m more supportive of you know being environmentally friendly and and really having a sustainability agenda but I would not choose myself to live in a house that was uh built of wood it burns and I do not particularly support the idea of more and more big buildings which could
Also be housing hazardous flammable materials um storage being done within buildings that are actually designed and constructed from wood because it burns I understand the need for sustainability but I tell you what is worse to the environment run off from water and you have to get fire extinguishers out you
Know from the fire brigade the fire was to come out to put out a blazes the buildings completely destroyed and the run off and the pollution into the soil and into the sky from the burning of wood so on a this is a personal view um
Based on what I’ve seen I just think if you talk about sustainability we need to have buildings that are resilient that don’t burn that are safe for occupants that’s my main priority on that and you know I think this doesn’t necessarily help with that and it puts additional
Risks in that’s just my take Brian and you know I’ll throw back to you for some other comments you might have yes I’ll start with a quote Mark Adam Winslow the CEO for General Insurance in the UK Island at Aviva has said there are a growing number of developers looking to
Build more sustainably both by using sustainable materials like engineered Timber and also by adopting modern methods of construction Aviva wants to embrace both in turn widening our underwriting appetite to ensure commercial buildings using engineered Timber and using our risk management expertise to minimize Associated risks Winslow continued we need to consider
The carbon footprint of a building over its lifetime if a building’s designed to be replaced in the event of a relatively minor incident well within its design life then it cannot be considered to be sustainable modern methods of construction that focus on resilience and repairability are critical for helping developers
Balance their sustainability commitments with the safety of building users and the communities they inhabit in its report entitled building future communities Aviva has called for strengthen planning regulation greater collaboration on Research across the building process and the need to encourage and incentivize property resilience in order to Aid recovery by
Incorporating leading risk management strategies which go beyond the current building regulations I firmly believes that structures incorporating a greater use of engineered Timber can be considered acceptable risks as an organization AA has committed to become Net Zero by 2040 and to support the UK in becoming the most climate change
Ready large economy by the year 20130 one final Point here Mark the August 2023 print edition of f matters contains articles referencing the issues discussed here on pages 24 to 26 for example there’s an excellent feature entitled sustainability par Paradigm which is authored by Julie Schulz from
Arab further to this on pages 56 to 58 Matt Wood from Milwood servicing has written an equally exent article entitled on the ESG agenda of course both can be read online by visiting our website at www.fs matters.com and also accessing the digital Edition so Brian it’s the time of the episode
We’ll be bringing on our first guest on this episode of the podcast who have you got for us our first guest on episode 34 of the fire matters podcast is Steve mcgurk the newly appointed executive officer of the fire sector Federation from October 2009 until June 2015 Steve
Served as Chief Fire officer for the greater Manchester fire and rescue service prior to this he served for 10 years in the same role at the chesher fire and rescue service a former board director for the institution of fire Engineers Steve was recognized for his contribution to public service through
The award of the Queen’s fire service medal in 2002 and a CBE 2 years later he served as an expert witness during The Grille Tower public inquiry Steve holds a first degree in politics and social science an honor degree in fire safety technology and management and also a
Master’s degree in management during the course of our interview Steve focuses on the ongoing and excellent work of the fire sector Federation and also outlines how the industry per se can best support its Endeavors welcome to the fire safety Masters podcast Steve first of all could you outline the fire sector federation’s key role in the fire industry for us yeah good morning thanks Brian so I I think the fire sector Federation has actually two roles emerging really the first of
Them is to I guess articulate or map out who exactly is in this thing called the fire sector so I’ve been around fire and rescue communities and fire safety community for best part of 45 years and and these Expressions get glibly used uh and very often people are clear there
Are some obvious people in it Fire Rescue Services for example and your key players the institution of fire Engineers fire industry Association you could list probably 20 or 30 organizations that are definitely easily identifiable as part of something called the fire sector but then we’ve done an
Awful lot of analysis to try and scope this out you start to realize particularly given the add complexity of a post grand for World on the back of dam Judith hackit work a Paul morel’s review into Construction Products the grenfall public inquiry itself s Knights team Etc that in light of all that
Complexity there are now many many many more players and stakeholders that have a real involvement in this thing called the fire sector so we see ourselves as it’s almost if feel like a Google Maps for the sector and and being at least one organization that has a really clear
Understanding of the organizations that together comprise this thing called the fire sector I guess our second role then is to to try to put in place a practical apparatus or or a set of Arrangements that enable those different organizations to connect to each other in ways that make sense and to ensure
That there are natural alignments that can uh take forward whether it’s guidance whe whether it’s trying to persuade government of a need for change or try to make sure one bit of this thing called the sector understands what another bit of the sector is doing which sounds incredibly simple but you you’ll
Know yourself from being a fire journalist just how much is going on how busy people are and how hard it is for one part of the sector to understand uh not just where the other part of the sector is at the minute but where the thinking is about where that different
Bit of the fire sector is going where it’s to where fire rescue authorities are enforcing the regulat reform order or the new industry competency Council and the role of Competency across the sector there were just so many things going on and I suppose the final thing
To say on that Brian is and we haven’t even had the final report from grenfell yet which is due in early 24 and that is likely to have even bigger implications for the way the fire sector thinks about its future and the need for it to be much more integrated and joined together
Which is where I think we fit in and what progress have you made since the launch of the white paper calling for a national strategy to be devised I I think we’ve made good progress so uh one of our directors Tom roach is is leading on it with a group of a very
Multi-disciplinary group of people thinking about that we’ve met regularly with different Departments of the government uh we maybe talk about that later I guess perhaps but we’ve had a very positive response I think what’s what’s really changed I guess what where it’s Mor to is one of the one of the
Issues when you can’t talk about art National Fire strategy is people sort of visualize a single document don’t they a big thick document that tries to be comprehensive and map out the way we’re all going to act in the next 5 10 15 years problem with that links it back to
The the the kind of answer about the role of the Federation the complexity of delivering a fire safe built environment and the players involved in that design approval regime the construction occupation know incidents will still happen the complexity of that situation means it’s highly unlikely that there
Will be a single document and and if you did do a single document it would either be so big as to be almost unwieldy and unmanageable or so high level as to be so vanilla as almost not with bothering Beyond agreeing that we all want a safer society and some key principles like
That so I I think what we’ve moved into in our discussions with the various government departments and and wider stakeholders more generally is that there’s an agreed need for better National strategic thinking and that is where again we are looking to reshape our direction of travel to enable Collective strategic
Thinking more collaborative strategic thinking uh that takes a national a bigger context than just at a local or Regional level and that is definitely Landing well with government as an approach to take and the kind of arrangements that we need to to do that are are what we’re thinking about now
And following on from that Steve what sort of response have you Reed from central government to date yeah I just I just mentioned overall it’s been positive but of course one of the problems we’ve got is again we gbally use the Expression government as if as we gly use the Expression fire sector
And government itself is made up of many moving parts and many different departments and so you’ve got the department ments with a clear Regulatory and enforcement responsibility obviously the home office and now the new building safety regulator which is of course part of the health and safety executive but
You continue to have local government in the shape of a building control departments and you know to some extent planning departments as well you’ve now got the opss uh the uh the product safety regulator which will deliver some enforcement at the high level but more we will probably be much more locally
Delivered almost certainly through trading standards Departments of local government so product safety from a fire safe point of view sits alongside product safety from all manner of other points of view as well so you’ve now got trading standards so that bit a local government is involved as well over here
You’ve got dlook involved in uh remediation design you know that aspect of it which I know your Journal writes up an awful lot about and then running alongside aside that you’ve got some outlying organizations if I might use that expression huge numbers of crown premises for which there’s a separate
Spectate youve got a defense safety spectate and then you got massive departments like education which has its responsibility for fire safety in schools and let’s not forget the NHS which has got thousands of premises with with different guidance and different somewhat different enforcement regime so essentially every single Department of
Government really has a part to play in fire safety policy we’ve realized we and we haven’t even talked by the way about devel administrations of Northern of Scotland Wales and to a large extent Northern Ireland as well so what that means is the response we’ve had from government is mixed and different levels
Of enthusiasm and it’s still very much working progress for two reasons one they are incredibly busy trying to deliver the agenda of the hacket reforms BSR and so on they’re also now they’ve got one eye to the reality of a likely general election well a certain general
Election next year the question is when that election is going to be um so that also adds to the level of complexity from trying to speak and get a consistent message from government itself and then the third langle is each government department has its own agenda and they are also Under Pressure to
Deliver their bit of their own agenda and so clearly we would all like better joined up government but that’s um that’s a whole and has been for many a long year the good news though is we’ve had overwhelmingly a positive response overwhelmingly agreement that it absolutely does make sense to try to uh
Think together collaboratively and better at a national level and to try to implement things at a national level and we’ve had an overwhelmingly positive response that it will be really useful and helpful for an organization like the Federation to play a bigger part in trying to help make sense of all the
Moving parts that that sit around this thing called the fire sector and how will the Federation itself work with what is a complex and fragmented sector to deliver on the proposed National strategy Steve so we we’re we’re doing a lot of deep thinking about that at the
Minute Brian um we realize we probably need to kind of change our shape um and we’re thinking about how we do that not not dramatically it’s not like we’re going to come something completely different but we in recognition of of everything that’s going on around us we
We sort of just just over 10 years old now we’ve come to that point um and it’s it’s not unhelpful just having to sort of change out from executive officers point of view and also a chair changed last year just that sort of right where
Are we now where we come from we come from a very positive place we believe we got a very positive future but it will probably U as a theme it will be the same I.E joining things together and bringing organizations together but uh it will require a very different
Apparatus we you know our website is is okay for for where we’ve been but for example the way technolog is moving we probably we almost certainly need a a new digital Hub so that we can enable connectivity across the sector better than we can at the minute we you know in
In a postco world people using teams as well as physical meetings and webinars there’s a whole series of new ways that people engage with each other using technology and digitization and we need to figure out what our mechanics are what our practical Arrangements are to facilitate that better as well as what
Our governance looks like to ensure that we’ve got the breadth of the sector uh working with the Federation but but in particular I think the real you know if you to take one big message about the Gap that Gren f is exposed it’s the fact the the construction sector in in all of
Its richness whether it’s Construction Products whether it’s design whether it’s the manufacturer products whether it’s installation you know construction the construction sector has really not supported the need for fire policy thinking to be embedded in the way that with the benefit of hindsight they probably should and that essentially
What Judith hackit report says and what we now need to be moving forward is to make sure that there’s a real alignment between the construction sector in all of its roundness and diversity with the fire sector and those two sectors are working together in the future in the
Way that we probably haven’t been for for quite some time and that’s not to say anybody’s done anything wrong to say that we we owe it to the the tragedy of Grenville to make sure that we’ve learned better lessons for the future in your opinion what are the main obstacles
The sector needs to overcome I think um there are plenty of obstacles uh for for the fire sector in delivering some of this and we could probably spend all day talking about the obstacles I think there probably two or three big obstacles I’d point to one is the level
Of complexity and the speed with which a lot needs to happen quite quickly and the risk that that is added to even more when the phase two of the grenfell report comes out if you were to add up the number of recommendations contained within the hackit reports phase one of
Grenfell Sir Ken Knight’s work the morel review the fire reform white paper I might have forgotten one or two other documents and then I have no idea how many recommendations will be in the final gr for report but there’s going to be a significant number we’ll probably
Run to many hundreds if more than a thousand recommendations emerging from the various reports associated with the with the tragedy of grenfell and we’ll have a a new government of some way shape or form in less than a year’s time or around about a year’s time that will
Have its own agenda and whether all of us in the fire Community I think it’s incredibly important and it is but so too from a government point of view things like the cost of living crisis the war in Ukraine we got an election in America that’s going to have some really
Interesting impacts on the UK uh your whole series of geopolitical international issues that are going to have a massive impact on the time and space available for governments to deliver on on those recommendations and the fire agenda so I think that complexity is is a massive
Obstacle I think what that then leads to is what I think is a second obstacle is that the fire sector can be fragmented different organizations are driven in many different ways some have commercial drivers some have legal drivers there are some big membership organizations there’s a whole set of phenomena driving
Different organizations within the fire sector that that inevitably lead to fragmentation and a disaggregated way of thinking and I think helping folks get past that idea or not seeing one bit of the sector as more important or less important than another are necessarily one big organization being allowed to
Dominate thinking simply because of size when actually some really good thinking coming from all parts of the sector so so getting past the the multiple drivers of different organizations to get them together in what we would describe as a safe setting or a safe space to be able
To think together and at least form good National strategic thinking and and better fire safety for for society really and then those same organizations can step back outside into their commercial World their legal World their enforcing world and be competitive and deliver on a commercial agenda but
Against the backdrop that the has been a very helpful and useful exercise and thinking which means that Society is going to benefit overall I know that sounds a little bit like motherhood and apple pie but our goal fundamentally is about public safety and trying to help different organizations that of course
Want better Public Safety but they’ve also good other drivers as well to see this as not an either or situation that you can be both commercial and work towards better Public Safety with other partners and I think that is probably the second biggest off obstacle getting getting colleagues to get past some of
Those drivers uh into into a shared space together and going forward Steve how can the fire industry itself actively support the work of the fire sector Federation two big ways one is keep an open mind my earlier point about different bits of the fire sector can be precious it’s not it’s not massively
Different to other sectors but it’s a phenomenon in life generally that people get really really strong views um and feel minded to assert them in a very very forceful Manner and that’s great you know some people some people can call that passion some people can call
It antagonism you know it depends on on how you feel about it on the other side so you know what would be really useful would be uh open-mindedness and and a recognition that we’re probably going to come up with better Solutions working collaboratively than we are necessarily working individually so that’s that’s
The first uh way to help and then secondly and because sometimes that can get in the way that uh if there’s one organization none of our kind of board directors are paid they’re all volunteers they come from backgrounds there’s a genuine interest in public safety uh I think you maintaining the
Idea that it is in a in the H of the sector’s collective interest to have at least one organization that hasn’t particularly got any agenda other than trying to improve Public Safety and I think the third the third thing I’d say on that is don’t let the perfect be the
Enemy of the good often government one of the challenges I talked earlier about how a government responded to this one of the Hest conversations I’ve had with different Departments of government is this idea what what government says is what we need is a is a sector to speak
With one voice we want consistency from the sector and my challenge back to government is well that’d be really good if we got consistency from the government I outlined earlier just how many government departments there are with a fire policy aspect or or responsibility and so I think we need to
Be authentic that says we can narrow down perspectives narrow down conversations to a workable number and a kind of much smaller number of really key issues that governments need to think about but the idea that we can Corral such a diverse group of complex organizations to come up with one is is
Fanciful if we ever did it would be so vanilla and almost not not be worth writing down to start off with yeah I I think what we need is is a recognition that we can make a a lot of progress and if it’s not perfect then let’s change
And adapt it to fit the new circumstances instead of just kind of anchoring something in as if it’s going to be there for time in Memorial and so that flexibility would be would be really useful don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good let’s move uh
Further forward see where we are if we need to change direction again let’s do that and let’s keep making Progress Back to the news now and in the year after the building safety act became law awareness of the benefits of five door third party certification is growing but the proportion of certified fire doors in use has apparently dropped slightly that’s one of the key findings exposed by new research conducted for the
British woodworking federation’s fire door Alliance the survey of 1,000 individuals across the UK with the direct responsibility for f law specification installation and maintenance found that over half 52% in fact Now look for third party certification as opposed to other means in order to provide proof of performance
For a given fire door this is a higher figure than the 46% recorded in 2022 when the same audience was surveyed 2/3 IE 66% of interviewees said they’re more likely to seek signification as a consequence of the building safety act while 92% stated that the traceability of a complete fire assembly is important
That last statistic Compares with 89% in 2022 these attitudes could indicate that new legislation aimed at increasing accountability is actually starting to take effect despite the growing awareness of third party certification and greater intention to specify third party certified fire do evidenced by these figures this hasn’t yet translated
Into a higher uptake last year respondent suggested that 56% of the total number of fire dos for which they’re responsible are third party certified the 2023 figure is actually lower at 54% Helen hwit who’s the CEO of the British workworking Federation has commented it’s clear that new legislation is having an impact on
Attitudes towards traceability and accountability in fire safety which is hugely positive to see for fire door specifically we witnessing a greater understanding of the benefits that third prodct certification can deliver in terms of aligning with the intentions of new legislation huitt went on to State however the study of findings highlights
Something of a disconnect between greater awareness and intent and the number of third party certified fire doors being specified this is concerning and pinpoints the belief that more guidance and training support is needed to increase uptake further here it has noted we do anticipate that as legislation leads to more robust systems
Over traceability we’ll see an increased demand for thirdparty certification certification provides robust proof of performance and traceability of a fire doors components its manufactur and subsequent Journey Through the supply chain as such it’s already made solution for complying with new regulations what points do you have to add to this
Particular story Mark well it’s a mixed bag brine from my point of view you know there’s an increase in Awareness which is good but it’s still at around the 50% Mark there’s still a long way to go it is fair to say that it’s moving in the
Right direction but it take a long time to get to 100% at this rate so I think I agree with the sentiment that you know perhaps more guidance is needed on this you know it’s a topic that certainly is catching imagination we just did a webinar the last week which was are your
Fire doors compliant reducing the risks and navigating regulations we had 2,800 people involved in that and and a week before that we had done another one on uh Hospital fire doors which uh you hosted as well and there’s a great great interest from our audience in this and I’d strongly encourage anyone that
Hasn’t to go onto our website FSM matters.com or just Google in a search engine whatever fire satety matters click on the webinars tab of our website and just go and watch these webinars on demand they’re completely free this CBD accredited by fire quall you’ll get be able to download certificate with your
Name on it a CBD certificate please do watch it because they can add far more intelligent insightful and educational content than than I probably can to this but you know there’s there’s a bit more to the story I want to cover as well so while the impacts of legislation over
Attitudes and intent appears to be significant the research also highlights areas where further education and guidance is needed over implementing the new laws some 30% of respondents were unsure of or otherwise didn’t understand the responsibilities in terms of the new legislation and pointed towards the need for more support and I think that
Probably highlights um my thoughts that I made earlier despite 78% of respondents having read new fire documents published by the home office to assist the responsible person in fulfilling their obligations only onethird expressed the belief that more information from the government would improve understanding of their responsibilities Brian that said not all
Guidance expected to emanate from the government 39% of respondents want to see more from employers while 55% said that there needed to be better training support so I know that we’ve obviously uh quoted already Helen CT but I will do again on this and she says the barding
Safety act is still in its relative infancy and it’s only natural that there should be an adjust adjustment period in terms of meeting these requirements the owners isn’t just an organizations or individuals themselves to comply though the process also requires the government Employers in the fire safety and building Industries in general to
Continue to provide education and support in navigating what are major changes only by treading this path can we make building safer for all so I want to move on to our final news story of this episode before you uh bring in our final guest and uh our good friend the
Mayor of London sque Khan makes another return to the podcast it feels like we have covered the mayor of London quite a bit um in uh previous episodes and on the website but sadik Khan has demanded urgent action from housing secretary Michael Grove as new figures show that
The government is holding up the delivery of new homes in London by leaving house builders in the dark about impending new fire safety requirements Minister’s first proposed rules requiring a second staircase in utour buildings in December last year in response to the grandell fire of June
2017 and just before I go on something I completely support I mean when you talk to people in Europe and the rest of the world they actually can’t fathom that tall buildings don’t have more than one staircase so you know for evacuation purposes I completely agree that there
Needs to be uh more than one so in a speech delivered back in July Michael Gove committed to this major change for new tower blocks over 180 meters tall and promised a transition Peri period that would ensure there is no disruption to housing Supply however new data
Issued by City Hall reveals there are now 34,000 homes on major developments being held up due to a lack of clarity from the government on these new fire safety requirements the figur only includes the biggest of elements I.E those that require maral planning sign off in turn meaning that thousands more
Homes will be affected on other smaller developments across the capital with construction costs Rising rapidly and developers already warn that they could be forced to down tools this Delay from the government could according to Mayor khah caused some schemes to be abandoned altogether the mayor has used his London
Plan and funding programs to go further the National Building regulations with a push towards greater building safety for example requiring Sprinklers and a complete ban on combustible cladding on all new homes local authorities and housing developers currently have no guidance on what the promised transition period will cover further they haven’t
Been informed what technical requirements it will need to meet to satisfy the new rules so for example whether the two staircases will need to be entirely separate or whether they can be contained within the same building core um personally I would hope they would be entirely separate um so Brian
Is there anything else you want to add on this story there is indeed mark this perceived quote unquote lack of clarity from the government comes what’s an already challenging time for house building across the country the mayor wrote to Michael go warning that housing experts are forecasting a major drop in
House building driven by high interest rates and building cost inflation which could actually see house building across England dropped to its lowest levels since World War II it could also put the capital’s house building boom at risk in recent years City Hall has completed more homes
Of all types than at any point since the 1930s built more Council homes than at any time since the 19 70s and exceeded its Target of building 116,000 new genuinely affordable homes in the capital by the end of the last Financial year S Khan has explained while I strongly support the highest 550
Standards for new buildings the chaotic way in which these new rules are being put in place by the government is now holding up the delivery of thousands of homes across the capital we’ve made huge progress in London since 2016 but we still have a long way to go in order to
Fix the housing crisis we simply canot afford this confusion caused by the government to slow down crucial housing delivery in our city mayor carus continued ministers must cut through this bureaucratic dther And Delay to urgently bring Clarity on these new 5 rules this should be done alongside the
Other steps we know are needed to help fix our housing crisis including investing the 4.9 billion perom the capital needs in order to meet the demand for new high quality and genuine affordable homes Stephanie pollet the program director for housing at business ldm has added building more residential developments
At PACE is vital for combating London’s housing crisis the government must provide urgent Clarity on building regulations to enable developers to build the homes that londoners need providing this certainty is critical to help the industry deliver highquality and well-designed homes that meet the highest of safety standards it’s worth
Noting here Mark that copies of the mayor of London’s letter to Michael go are available on request via email at economic london. gov.uk so Brian that’s the news cover this week and like I always say you can go to our website FSM matters.com or thr your search engine fire safy matters and
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Final part of this episode is our second guest and who have you got fris Prime our second guest on this edition of the podcast is Derek Hall director of sales and marketing at Life Safety Control Systems manufacturer kch Electronics Derek joined the business in late 2018 armed with 20 years experience of
Operating in the fire detection and fire alarms Arena during a 12-year spell as head of fire products with Seamans Derek was responsible for launching the very popular cus Pro solution into the marketplace indeed Derek’s career underscores a steadfast commitment to Innovation and excellence in the fire safety industry underpinned by a fervent
Passion for saving lives and safeguarding property on the podcast Derek references several areas among them the Sol hle community housing project and how manufacturers can adapt to meet regulatory Changes many congratulations on the success of the Solly hle community housing project Derek we’ve actually featur this project on pages 36 to 38 of the August edition of fire safety matters what technologies were used and which part of the project would you say impressed you the most okay really good question Brian thank
You very much for the opportunity to be on this podcast the solell community housing project did represent a few different um issues for us but we used um our latest Wireless technology called Kish to overcome many of the problems associated with it in in total the project was about 4,000 detectors and
They were all linked to a combination of tactis and Synchro as analog control panels all of these um panels were then connected to a remote um station so giving the end user um up to the minute information about different events going on in the in the properties on a similar
Note Derek what issues and challenges did you face when considering this year scale of this project it is pretty big is actually a number of live property so in total 37 tall buildings so we’ve got to think about um the application which is um with lots of different people from
Different types of communities and also with uh different requirements in terms of evacuation from the building so when you got such a large number of um floors and individual rooms you’ve really got to consider how best to evacuate those buildings importantly it was all about um fire safety system protection but one
Of the biggest concerns for the uh the building um owner was actually trying to get the project done very quickly but at the same time maintaining the structural Integrity of it because with a wide system you very often have to have lots of Builder works now those Builder works
Could be drilling holes it could be compromising fire compartmentation and with a wireless system such as Kesh you don’t have those considerations to think about it was very convenient for the end client but of course it didn’t disturb the occupants of the building in quite
So much as same way as a wide system would now Sol hul was actually our biggest installation to date and we supplied the product to our um kentech installation partner called early birds they’re pretty good at doing this kind of stuff and they’ve done quite a few
Projects with Kesh so for them it was um a really quick and simple job to actually get in and out of the apartments and I think the end client solel community housing was exceptionally pleased at how how well they managed the project and how they worked with the the occupants of the
Individual apartments and flats so this particular site with um with nearly 37 buildings over a 5 mile radius there was different types of occupants as well and one of the many challenges that we had was actually looking at how do we evacuate those people with either neurological or sensory needs now
Traditionally with fire alarm systems it’s a l a loud Sounder that goes off in in in a room but we know that some people don’t actually respond particularly well to loud noises so we had to think of alternative technology to help them evacuate safely obviously meeting the needs of of these different
Resident groups and ensuring their safety was not only challenging but with extensive consultation with the end user and the installer we were able to come up with the solution that met the problems so I think that it was all about trying to identify their specific needs and come up with the right product
And the right um solution for their application but is there a benefit to installing different life safety systems for example detection and or extinguishment or evacuation panels on one site and is it the case that installed training renders this a more streamlined process do you feel well I
Think that um from our side with the with the kch technology the whole product platform and portfolio is designed for ease of installation but also for the installer to be more familiar with our different range of products so because they’re from the same family the actual learning curve
For them is um is is actually quite shallow it doesn’t take a long time to get your head round our products and become experts on them now of course in the um application for Tool buildings there are lots more considerations and different ones to um an extinguishment
System but because you know one product range you can actually jump into the next product range very quickly because of the familiarity and the similarities between them and where does a fire detection Solutions manufacturer such as kentech fit in with a life cycle of a building or indeed a series of buildings
Derek I think that kentech has always been very proud to make products that last a long time in fact most of our analog addressable systems we would expect an average life um cycle of about 20 years now one of the things that kentech actually did when it um phased
Out the Synchro panel was made sure that our own our newer products actually had full backwards and forwards migration capabilities we’re actually the first manufacturer to achieve this or even attempt to achieve it so if you have a network of Synchro panels you can replace one panel at a time using our
Bridge functionality and then you can upgrade to the latest technology called tactis this is really important for an end user because you’re not having to replace was the entire system in one massive Financial hit the financial burden has then spread out over many years according to the phasing and um
Actually the budget constraints that the end user might have this is really good for our installation partners because they’re not forcing an end user into making a huge purchase when it comes to the end of a particular product so Synchro had been around for 20 years but we’re still actually managing to migrate
It via tactis and extend its life cycle for probably about another 20 years as well what does the future of fire detection look like from your own point of view I personally think that fire detection is probably at the peak of its technology you know we have all of these
Um new types of devices coming out with multi criteria elements including Co so when you have a device which is looking for slow and fast smoldering fire um phenoma also heat detection and even Co you probably actually have a very reliable detector I think the challenge
Now on the on the market is to is to come up with detect ction technology that not only reliably detects fires but also eliminates false alarms we know that from the fire brigade and also from the industry that false alarms is a big problem for um um forend users I can’t
Remember the exact amount of money that is actually wasted on false alarms but we’re probably running into um a couple of billion pounds each year in the UK I think the pressure will be on manufacturers to come up with more reliable detection but also detection that doesn’t Force alarm now the other
Trend that we’re seeing is where there’s a labor shortage in in our industry um people are asking for fire alarm systems to be installed much more quickly now with Kesh and our wireless technology this is making it a lot more easier for installers to um find the required
Skilled labor but also achieve the um the same objective much more quickly so in comparison a wireless system might may well take only two or three days to install whereas a wired system might take um 2 to 3 weeks so I think that there will be a massive Trend towards
Wireless Systems because of um installers are accepting it as being much more reliable and end users becoming much more familiar with it just in their everyday lives so I think that Wireless Systems will be the future for um fire detection and alarms and what moves can the industry make to protect
Building occupants from fire on a more effective basis do you feel not only do I work for a manufacturer but um I’m an OCC occupant of many buildings and you’ve got to have trust and belief that the fire alarm system is going to react
In the way that you expect it to so if there is a fire you want to be evacuated very quickly but likewise you don’t want the fire alarm system going off because of a falce alarm when it comes to adapting to regulatory change and reform what are the key responsibilities of
Industry manufacturers such as yourselves kentech and every manufacturer out there has to comply with the necessary en54 standards as a manufacturer that puts um a great deal of obligation on to us to ensure that the um the reliability and the quality of the products are there but we’re
Actually very limited by what we can do because a standard is written in a certain way and we must comply with it otherwise we can’t legally sell in the UK or the European market I think what we’re finding now that um fire alarm systems are being adapted for different
Applications on the back of the grandall tragedy um fire alarm systems are now being used for residential and domestic applications whereas previously they wouldn’t have been considered with the stay put policy a fire alarm system wasn’t required and I think that um again with the The KES system what we’re
Finding that there’s a hybrid approach to not only detection of fires but also the evacuation of those buildings so BS 8629 was actually developed as a standard outside of our traditional standard of bs5839 part one bs5839 part one doesn’t really fit the residential and domestic Market but 8629 is a
Standard for helping installers and designers and even manufacturers come up with a solution for evacuating these toall buildings very quickly I think the feedback from um our installers is that as we go through this transitional phase of removing the cladding from um from walls we’re having to have a um a
Combination of a fire detection system but also an evacuation and alert system and I think that this is where kentech is coming from in that um although it doesn’t meet either standard there has to be a hybrid approach and a transition between removing the cladding but you
Have to have a fire system in place avoid having a wakeing watch um approach and then eventually when the building has had the cladding removed you can then remove the fire detection elements of it personally I think that this is a much better approach because it’s given
An end user an opportunity to go through this transitional phase because they can’t find the money instantly to either remove the cladding or um have a firearm system permanently in place so while the systems again are really coming to the Forefront in showing that they can be extremely flexible in solving that
Problem what positive impact is being exerted by independent manufacturers like kentech in The Wider context of fire detection ultimately we’re all in the industry to save people’s lives and protect people’s property and I think that um kentech and all other manufacturers had a moral duty to make
Sure that the products that we putting out to Market are fit for purpose but also um solving the problems of the industry kente’s approach again has been slightly different to other manufacturers in that um not only we are we looking to comply with the relevant standards but we also have the
Flexibility to look at alternative approaches because we are an end-to-end manufacturer we can basically design and build panels which are bespoke for an application so it doesn’t limit the end user to a single um approach you can have a little bit more flexibility about what you’re really trying to achieve
Especially when it comes to um evacuating people and I say one of the things that comes up every now and again is not just putting loud Sounders into people’s um um Apartments because we know that there’s a huge amount of people that don’t respond to large alarm Sounders going off they need additional
Help because of their neurological or sensory needs so k meses a product is not only about um detecting and alerting occupants in the traditional bs5839 part one style the smart guide devices which also have um flashing LEDs to wayf find and help people evacuate the building
But it also has a voice recorded message this voice recorded message as we know helps people react more quickly to a fire event but it can also be tailored to an individual’s need as well so bespoken personal messages I think are going to be very useful for those people
That don’t respond to traditional alarm Sounders and last but not least Derek we’ve heard on the Great Vine that you’re planning to run for election to the fire Industry association’s Board of Directors we wish you all the very best with that process why have you chosen to
Do this exactly uh Brian I was actually trying to keep that fairly quiet but at some point it’s got to come out um um when I when I started in the um in the industry going back about 26 27 years ago now I never really thought that I
Would be um looking to stand for election but I think that too many people um that are close to me have said maybe it’s time I actually did this so uh I personally think it’s a polite way of them saying that um I’m probably been in Industry too long I’m getting too
Cynical but for me it’s an opportunity to help develop the industry um I’ve always wanted to see it become a much more professional trade and to also give people an opportunity to develop skills and um and learn a trade from what I see seen in that um 27 years often people
Just stumble into the fire alarm industry and they may well be transferring from other engineering trades but unfortunately too many people have no industry background or engineering background at all this is really important for me because as an ex electrical and electronics engineering Apprentice I had a I had a pathway into
Engineering I would never made a connection with fire alarms because there was no obvious route to achieve it and I think as an industry again we’ve got um a real shortage of skills and labor and it’s really important that we ensure that our industry is recognized and equipped for the future especially
As personal responsibility and liability will become even more on the agenda so I think upskilling the people that we already have in the industry is going to be really vital but also attracting new and younger talent and I think that getting apprentices in is a really good
Pathway for them to achieve that so why do I think I could become an important member of the board well I do have an opinion um it is based on 27 years of experience in the industry but I also think it’s um really important that we recognize that um the UK Market is
Actually made up of lots of small companies and I think we need to make it fairer so all too often the bigger boys have twoo greater say in what’s going on in our standards and what’s going on in our industry but actually it’s made up of many smaller companies and I think
They need a voice collectively they are the largest part of the UK market and um kentech does best to support and represent them and I think I can help them achieve that as Well that brings us to the end of episode 34 of the 550 matters podcast many thanks indeed to our special guests on this Edition namely Steve mcer from the fire sector Federation and Derek Hall of Kent Electronics you can read more on the issues raised in this
Edition of the podcast and others by visiting the fire safety matters website the web address you need to access is www.fs matters.com we do hope you’ve enjoyed the content delivered in the podcast and found it informative please do contact us if there are any particular themes or issues you would
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