Piers Morgan vs Norman Finkelstein On Israel and Palestine | The Full Interview

Piers Morgan Uncensored is joined by author and political scientist Dr Norman Finkelstein after being one of our most highly-requested guests to cover the Israel and Palestine conflict.

In this interview, the controversial Jewish scholar answers whether he condemns the attacks by Hamas on October 7th, explains some of the historical mistreatment Palestine has suffered, the conditions of Gaza, an explanation and context for his seemingly inflammatory tweet in reaction to the October 7th attacks as well as some more nuance conversations about the intricacies of the conflict between Israel, Hamas and Palestine.

He also tells Piers he saw he had ‘humanity’ when he watched him judge Susan Boyle on Britain’s Got Talent – before comparing the singer to the people of Gaza.

Watch Douglas Murray’s response to this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KNhzD1xDE

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Welcome back to PB on S my next guest is one of the most influential to many controversial political scientists in the world most recently he started controversy with his ferocious criticism of Israel’s attacks on Gaza many of you have called for him to appear on this show with thousands of comments like

This one I wonder if P morg going to be brave enough to have Norman finlin on his show well I’m pleased to say the answer is yes because we believe in being uncensored here and hearing from all voices and so I’m joined Now by Professor Norman finkl Professor thank

You very much indeed for joining me I appreciate it and like I said a lot of people wanted a lot of people wanted me to interview you yourself tweeted that the we we hadn’t done it so here we are I’m glad about it um I think you’re an influential voice and you’ve obviously

Been very vocal about this since it all kicked off I want to take you back uh if if I may to the to October the 7th because your first reaction to What happened on October the 7th incensed many people uh you uh posted on Su stack

Uh a piece about what had happened on the day and it included this for the past 20 years of people of Gaza half of whom are children have been immured in a concentration camp today they breach the Camp’s walls if we honor John Brown’s armed resistance to slavery if we honor

The Jews who revolted in the war so ghetto the moral consistency commands and we honor the heroic resistance in Gaza I for one will never begrudge on the contrary it warms every fiber of my soul the scenes of are smiling children as their arrogant Jewish supremacist oppressors have finally been humbled and

You ended by saying the stars above in heaven are looking kindly down Glory Glory Hallelujah The Souls of Gaza go marching on with the benefit of of a few weeks now do you regret the tone of that initial response to what happened my initial response was to the

Initial news stories you will recall all I’m sure that initially what we were informed was that there was a break uh breakout from Gaza concentration camp that approximately 1,500 people had broken out and that about 50 people that was the initial number that was given approximately 50 Israelis were killed

The number gradually grew went from 50 a couple of days later it went to 100 and I’m sure you’ll remember the number didn’t reach 1,400 until about 10 days later initially it was reasonable excuse me it was reasonable to assume that people had been killed in a firefight

Which was not the case at least not fully the case so my initial reaction was to the initial news stories by the third or fourth day I was is clearly compelled to rethink my initial statements and try to make sense of what was clearly a moral quander and at that

Point I revised my not revised but I uh considered my judgment on the basis of the new information that was available okay and my own sense yes go Ahad that’s what I I just want to look I’ve done a Time line uh for my own benefit uh based

On what happened that day we know the attacks began at 6:30 in the morning uh we know that at 11:18 a.m. Israel confirmed as you say 40 dead 700 injured at 11:35 Benjamin Netanyahu said we are at War at 12:30 that day at lunchtime I tweeted horrifying and appalling scenes from

Israel this murderous indiscriminate Hamas terror attack on Israeli people is shameful and indefensible by 4117 Israel said 100 were dead at least 985 wounded civilian hostages have been taken at 4:00 a little later than that around the same time footage has released of attack reporting that 3,000 bombs and Firearms have been fired

Off by Hamas civilians have been killed and so on and yet at 6:30 and then again at at 916 you were retweeting your initial uh substep back uh and you then added at 9116 uh that the you felt the hostage situation was crocodile tears so I would

Take issue uh with your uh statement that you thought it was only after two or three days anyone had a clue about the scale of what had happened here it was very obvious during that Saturday about the mounting scale of horror and I just don’t understand why someone as

Scholarly as you as expert in this region in this conflict as you are why your response would be that for several days one of glorifying in the uh in what in what you called heroic resistance whereas mine and I’ve always tried to be fair-minded about this conflict and

Reported it for CNN and tried to be fair and accurate as of when I’ve seen it uh that I at midday that day I’m talking about a murderous indiscriminate terror attack and horrifying and appalling scenes I just don’t I just don’t believe that you weren’t aware with great

Respect about the scale of what was going on okay Pierce let me Begin by saying I want to have a civil conversation and I’m going to do my darnest to remain faithful to the facts and faithful to truth I’ll do my darness not to exaggerate the first thing I have

To say is I don’t tweet I’ve never been on Twitter I have three young teex people who I send statements to and then they make the decision where to place it on substack on Twitter and so forth okay I just want to clear that up I made one

Statement on the first day on the basis of the information that was available to me the information was 50 people had been killed now my memory is but I won’t claim my memory is infall the numbers didn’t start to grow until the next day that’s not true as the

Numbers okay it’s just not true here’s well Professor with respect I’m not going it’s not true Pi Piers Piers yeah but you have to listen to what I say but you want me to you want me to believe you and you say you weren’t aware of the

Scale of this for several days and I find that just I’m incredulous you want me to believe that okay Pi Pierce Pierce I’m not going to force you to to believe it and I’m not going to even try to impose my will I’m simply saying as a

Factual matter speaking for myself I was not aware that the numbers had been beyond 50 when I made that statement I will further State I will further state that to my knowledge I could be mistaken that I did not make another statement until the numbers start to

Grow and I admit I have said to you it was a moral quander for me and I said in many interviews that it was for me a very burdened moment because I wasn’t entirely confident in my moral judgment and it was at that point that I start to

Look back at what the white abolitionists had to say when Nat Turner carried out a slave rebellion and many whites were uh hacked to death children were beheaded and I wanted to see because I was not confident of my moral judgment I wanted to see what did the white

Abolitionists those who fought against SL y had to say and I looked at what William Lloyd Garrison probably the most famous of the white abolitionists and he said horrible things happened during Nat Turner’s Rebellion but if you read his statement he wouldn’t condemn Nat Turner

Or Nat Turner let me okay so let me ask you oh let me ask you okay I’ve heard you say this before that analogy that’s fine but let me me ask you given you now know the scale of what happened given you know 12200 people were killed including 800 or so completely innocent

Civilians we we know that children were killed that grandmothers were killed and their deaths FaceTime to their families we know that over 200 people were were kidnapped and taken hostage given you know the full scale of this attack I’ve asked a lot of guests this these two

Questions and i’ be curious about your answer one would you categorize it as a terror attack attack and secondly would you condemn Hamas for what they did my view is as follows number one as far as the evidence shows now atrocities occurred on October 7th the magnitude of

The atrocities and the types of atrocities for example where children beheaded were women raped That Remains so far as I can tell from the evidence an open question however that there were atrocities that occurred my answer is yes number two that’s a that’s a factual question then there’s question was was a terror

Attack yeah well atrocities it seems to me denotes a terror attack okay that’s what atrocities are okay so number two that’s the factual question and then there is the legal question as a matter of law it seems unquestionable that the people who perpetrated these atrocities would be

Prosecuted and convicted in the court of law however I would say on the legal question I should think that there would be some mercy shown because those who carried out the atrocities were concentration camp inmates number three which I think is the one that concerns you the most is the moral question and

At a moral level my view is my basic precept we may disagree my basic precept is that they’re but for the grace of God go I that is to say I’m very reluctant to condemn people who are in a position or in a condition such that were I in

That position or condition I’m not sure what I would do now the 1500 young men who burst the gates of Gaza they were born into a concentration camp they lived for two decades in a concentration camp they had no past they had no present they had no future they had no

Jobs half of them according to humanitarian organizations suffered from what’s called severe food insecurity and then on top of that as I’m sure you know Pierce because you keep up with the news periodically Israel goes into Gaza and it Ms the lawn and you know what Ms the lawn means it

Means a Hightech massacre in Gaza in 20089 operation cast Le 2012 operation pillar of Defense 2014 operation protective Edge and on each of these high tech massacres visited on the people of Gaza in some cases hundreds in some cases thousands of Palestinians are killed okay and let me ask in fact just

An oper let me ask on that point in light of one question about that in that period yes in that period And by the way I I’ve been condemnatory of some of the things you’ve just talked about publicly I’ve tweeted my condemnation of some of these

Things uh and I’ve I’ve tried to shine a light on the plot of the Palestinians for many many years and I feel that the oppression uh of the Palestinian people for many decades has been absolutely outrageous so on that we can completely agree um but when it comes to what

You’re saying here it seems to me what you’re trying to paint is a picture of some kind of moral justification for what Hamas did and that’s where you lose me because I don’t see why there could be any anyone who can see the scale of what Hamas did on October 7th and not

Simply condemn it out of hand you may also want to condemn some of the response by Israel that’s completely normal I would say that there are serious question marks about the proportionality of what they’ve been doing but if you can’t start from a basic Humanity position of saying what

Happened on October the 7th was a a disgusting terror attack worthy of condemnation then for me I find it very hard to then respect anyone’s demand for people to condemn Israel and their response appears I’m really and I’m trying to be candid with you number one

I appreciate your Humanity I do I don’t know you from Adam I’m not a TV or a television or social media kind of person I’m a book person I’m oldfashioned however I do recall that when that famous moment when Susan Bole appeared on Britain’s God talent and I remember the

Camera turning to you focusing on you I can see it in my mind’s eye I saw your eyes narrow and suddenly the humanity in you came up here is this obscure woman whose Talent had gone unrecognized and if I can speak to that same program for me the most poent

Moment the one I carry with me my enti since that moment was when Simon Cowell asked um Susan Bole well why haven’t you been discovered yet and she replied because I haven’t been given a chance and that’s how I feel about the people of Gaza that’s how I feel about those young men

In Gaza you ask me why I won’t condemn them because those young men were born into a concentration camp they were born into among the most dense po uh populated places on on God’s Earth half of the population of gods’s children 70% are refugees who were expelled from Israel in 1948 and their

Descendants 70% of those of God’s youth have no jobs no future no nothing they are Susan Bole times 10,000 never given a chance and as things looked the night before October 7th when the question of Gaza was disappearing from the public stage I will admit to you peers I

Myself had given up on Gaza in 2020 I decided it’s hopeless it’s pointless I only have a finite number of years left in my life and it’s time for me to move on and I’ll tell you that was a wrench ing decision on my part because

I knew I was abandoning the people who for 15 years I had devoted my life to chronicling every detail of the horror that had been inflicted on those people and I gave up on them okay and that meant if I gave up they had no future because I was the last chronicler

Okay but what I would say Gaza I have the only book profess that’s been written on let me respond let me respond what I would respond I would respond by saying that what people in Israel would say and what Jewish people would say particular who live in Israel is that

They were facing a constant barrage of rockets from Hamas Hamas won political power in 20056 that they were given a huge amount of money uh and could have done what whatever they wanted with that money but chose to pursue a path of effectively terrorizing uh the Israelis over that

Period and the israelies you’re right they responded in a they have a far superior military and they responded in the way that they did and this cycle has been going on and repeat and repeat and repeat but where you and I differ about this is that I think what happened on

October the 7th was just uh on a different scale to anything we’ve seen and the way it was carried out and I just don’t think saying that people who have been oppressed which they undoubtedly were for many years that that justifies them committing that act of Terror but let’s take a break let’s

Come back after the break and and discuss this more welcome back I’m still with Professor Norman finlin Professor just to round off what we’ve just been discussing given that you wrote that substi uh and you you want me to believe and okay I’ll take your word for it you

Were completely oblivious to the reality of what had happened here on the scale of it um but given you’re not now oblivious to that why have you not removed that substat given the language is so clearly offensive to people and you based it by your own words on a

False premise about what had happened you know Pierce that’s a very good question and this morning when I was talking to some friends from the UK I was warned you would ask that question I’ll honestly tell you I never fear the truth I don’t I feel the truth

Is a very powerful weapon on the side of the oppressed I never fear it now I’m going to give you the answer again you can or can’t disagree with me or believe me I was tempted to remove it I was tempted to quote unquote protect myself I didn’t remove it because I

Thought that’s intellectually dishonest I wrote that statement it’s part of the historical record it’s part of the documentary record and I shouldn’t do what Stalin used to do so when he published photographs of the bolik Revolution he would take trotsky’s picture out okay that’s the image so you won’t delete so

That was that’s the image that stuck to me all right you I’ve going to delete it but do do you do you regret it do I regret what do you regret the contents of that substack given that you now know what really happened yes if it can be

Misconstrued to mean that I wrote that with full knowledge of what happened of course I regret it okay however it remains part of the record and as a serious scholar I’m not a great scholar I’m not in the ranks of the Great British historians but I take

Scholarship seriously I did not want to denature to falsify to misrepresent the documentary record let me ask you let me ask you let me ask and I will leave it there okay okay that’s listen that’s your decision you are the son of two people who survived the Holocaust who were both in concentration

Camps uh you’re a Jewish man uh and you know how inury that substack has proven to be with Jewish people around the world who many of whom have felt this is the nearest thing to the Holocaust of World War II that they’ve enured what your parents went

Through being Revisited on them in these kutes on October the 7th um what do you feel about them I mean how would your parents have felt about you literally on the day that this happened talking about heroic resistance talking about that you will never begrudge the scenes uh that

You the stars in heaven are looking kindly down Glory Glory The Souls of Gaza go marching on how would your parents have felt about that coming out of concentration camp surviving the Holocaust of World War II well first of all anything I write I have my parents looking at the screen

Behind me over my shoulders in a metaphorical sense I am very conscious every moment of my existence every moment of my existence goes back to the martyrdom of my family so it’s not as if suddenly you’re posing a question to me that never occurred to me quite the

Contrary I do need even 30 years after their death I need the moral validation that came from my parents martyrdom and the extermination of their family how would my parents have reacted my gu is if on the first day they heard that inmates in a concentration

Camp burst its Gates I think my parents would be very pleased at that fact as the events became clearer my guess but this is pure speculation my guess is my parents would go out with their hearts would go out to those who burst the gates of the concentration camp and

Whose lives were destroyed now you will say to me completely legitimately you would say what what would your parents feel about the Innocents who were slaughtered in the atrocities on that date so I’m going to give you as close an answer as I could give

I as I’m able to I once asked my late mother I said to her what was your feeling when you heard that the German cities were being Terror bombed during World War II the carpet bombing of the German cities targeting civilians what was your feeling and my mother’s response to me was

Quote our feeling was if we’re going to to die we’re going to take some of them with us now that’s not the most morally elevated statement I agree and do I wish my mother had and my father had a heightened sensitivity to German civilian life I

Suppose I would wish it but I will tell you pierce to the last day of my parents life it was Unthinkable that they would have a kind word to say about Germans and it was Unthinkable that I would ever quarrel with them on that point okay I accepted

I accepted that given their life experience they had the right to hate the people who destroyed their lives and the people Gaza have the right to hate the people who destroyed their lives Professor figin uh thank you for the answer and I don’t mean to cut you off

We’ve got another guest waiting to respond to what we’ve been discussing I’d like to get you back on I feel like we’ve had a a good conversation I don’t agree with you about some of it obviously that’s been clear but I respect the tone that you’ve adopted for

The interview and i’ would like to explore more of this with you another time I want to just say one last word everybody warned me you wouldn’t let me speak that you would speak over me you would stop me I want everybody to know you are eminently fair you were decent

And you are that same human being whose eyes narrowed as Susan Bole began to perform okay you have that humanity and I deeply respect it thank you Professor I appreciate you coming on thank you very much